Gavriel's questions
- 17 god considering not telling him. is that an option? why ? for that reason?
- Why did Abraham not ask to save the whole city? why did he bargain? Why is going down to 10?
- 25-Is Abraham trying to make god feel guilty? Avram is saying: you are making a bad name for yourself. be fair!
- lot was super kind - did he know they were angels or was he like this with anyone?
- Lot offered his daughter in exchange for the people of the city to leave them alone. was he actually going to do that?
- Is there symbolism in the pillar of the salt?
(טז) וַיָּקֻ֤מוּ מִשָּׁם֙ הָֽאֲנָשִׁ֔ים וַיַּשְׁקִ֖פוּ עַל־פְּנֵ֣י סְדֹ֑ם וְאַ֨בְרָהָ֔ם הֹלֵ֥ךְ עִמָּ֖ם לְשַׁלְּחָֽם׃ (יז) וַֽיהֹוָ֖ה אָמָ֑ר הַֽמְכַסֶּ֤ה אֲנִי֙ מֵֽאַבְרָהָ֔ם אֲשֶׁ֖ר אֲנִ֥י עֹשֶֽׂה׃ (יח) וְאַ֨בְרָהָ֔ם הָי֧וֹ יִֽהְיֶ֛ה לְג֥וֹי גָּד֖וֹל וְעָצ֑וּם וְנִ֨בְרְכוּ־ב֔וֹ כֹּ֖ל גּוֹיֵ֥י הָאָֽרֶץ׃ (יט) כִּ֣י יְדַעְתִּ֗יו לְמַ֩עַן֩ אֲשֶׁ֨ר יְצַוֶּ֜ה אֶת־בָּנָ֤יו וְאֶת־בֵּיתוֹ֙ אַחֲרָ֔יו וְשָֽׁמְרוּ֙ דֶּ֣רֶךְ יְהֹוָ֔ה לַעֲשׂ֥וֹת צְדָקָ֖ה וּמִשְׁפָּ֑ט לְמַ֗עַן הָבִ֤יא יְהֹוָה֙ עַל־אַבְרָהָ֔ם אֵ֥ת אֲשֶׁר־דִּבֶּ֖ר עָלָֽיו׃ (כ) וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהֹוָ֔ה זַעֲקַ֛ת סְדֹ֥ם וַעֲמֹרָ֖ה כִּי־רָ֑בָּה וְחַ֨טָּאתָ֔ם כִּ֥י כָבְדָ֖ה מְאֹֽד׃ (כא) אֵֽרְדָה־נָּ֣א וְאֶרְאֶ֔ה הַכְּצַעֲקָתָ֛הּ הַבָּ֥אָה אֵלַ֖י עָשׂ֣וּ ׀ כָּלָ֑ה וְאִם־לֹ֖א אֵדָֽעָה׃ (כב) וַיִּפְנ֤וּ מִשָּׁם֙ הָֽאֲנָשִׁ֔ים וַיֵּלְכ֖וּ סְדֹ֑מָה וְאַ֨בְרָהָ֔ם עוֹדֶ֥נּוּ עֹמֵ֖ד לִפְנֵ֥י יְהֹוָֽה׃ (כג) וַיִּגַּ֥שׁ אַבְרָהָ֖ם וַיֹּאמַ֑ר הַאַ֣ף תִּסְפֶּ֔ה צַדִּ֖יק עִם־רָשָֽׁע׃ (כד) אוּלַ֥י יֵ֛שׁ חֲמִשִּׁ֥ים צַדִּיקִ֖ם בְּת֣וֹךְ הָעִ֑יר הַאַ֤ף תִּסְפֶּה֙ וְלֹא־תִשָּׂ֣א לַמָּק֔וֹם לְמַ֛עַן חֲמִשִּׁ֥ים הַצַּדִּיקִ֖ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר בְּקִרְבָּֽהּ׃ (כה) חָלִ֨לָה לְּךָ֜ מֵעֲשֹׂ֣ת ׀ כַּדָּבָ֣ר הַזֶּ֗ה לְהָמִ֤ית צַדִּיק֙ עִם־רָשָׁ֔ע וְהָיָ֥ה כַצַּדִּ֖יק כָּרָשָׁ֑ע חָלִ֣לָה לָּ֔ךְ הֲשֹׁפֵט֙ כׇּל־הָאָ֔רֶץ לֹ֥א יַעֲשֶׂ֖ה מִשְׁפָּֽט׃ (כו) וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהֹוָ֔ה אִם־אֶמְצָ֥א בִסְדֹ֛ם חֲמִשִּׁ֥ים צַדִּיקִ֖ם בְּת֣וֹךְ הָעִ֑יר וְנָשָׂ֥אתִי לְכׇל־הַמָּק֖וֹם בַּעֲבוּרָֽם׃ (כז) וַיַּ֥עַן אַבְרָהָ֖ם וַיֹּאמַ֑ר הִנֵּה־נָ֤א הוֹאַ֙לְתִּי֙ לְדַבֵּ֣ר אֶל־אֲדֹנָ֔י וְאָנֹכִ֖י עָפָ֥ר וָאֵֽפֶר׃ (כח) א֠וּלַ֠י יַחְסְר֞וּן חֲמִשִּׁ֤ים הַצַּדִּיקִם֙ חֲמִשָּׁ֔ה הֲתַשְׁחִ֥ית בַּחֲמִשָּׁ֖ה אֶת־כׇּל־הָעִ֑יר וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אַשְׁחִ֔ית אִם־אֶמְצָ֣א שָׁ֔ם אַרְבָּעִ֖ים וַחֲמִשָּֽׁה׃ (כט) וַיֹּ֨סֶף ע֜וֹד לְדַבֵּ֤ר אֵלָיו֙ וַיֹּאמַ֔ר אוּלַ֛י יִמָּצְא֥וּן שָׁ֖ם אַרְבָּעִ֑ים וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אֶֽעֱשֶׂ֔ה בַּעֲב֖וּר הָאַרְבָּעִֽים׃ (ל) וַ֠יֹּ֠אמֶר אַל־נָ֞א יִ֤חַר לַֽאדֹנָי֙ וַאֲדַבֵּ֔רָה אוּלַ֛י יִמָּצְא֥וּן שָׁ֖ם שְׁלֹשִׁ֑ים וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אֶֽעֱשֶׂ֔ה אִם־אֶמְצָ֥א שָׁ֖ם שְׁלֹשִֽׁים׃ (לא) וַיֹּ֗אמֶר הִנֵּֽה־נָ֤א הוֹאַ֙לְתִּי֙ לְדַבֵּ֣ר אֶל־אֲדֹנָ֔י אוּלַ֛י יִמָּצְא֥וּן שָׁ֖ם עֶשְׂרִ֑ים וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אַשְׁחִ֔ית בַּעֲב֖וּר הָֽעֶשְׂרִֽים׃ (לב) וַ֠יֹּ֠אמֶר אַל־נָ֞א יִ֤חַר לַֽאדֹנָי֙ וַאֲדַבְּרָ֣ה אַךְ־הַפַּ֔עַם אוּלַ֛י יִמָּצְא֥וּן שָׁ֖ם עֲשָׂרָ֑ה וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אַשְׁחִ֔ית בַּעֲב֖וּר הָעֲשָׂרָֽה׃ (לג) וַיֵּ֣לֶךְ יְהֹוָ֔ה כַּאֲשֶׁ֣ר כִּלָּ֔ה לְדַבֵּ֖ר אֶל־אַבְרָהָ֑ם וְאַבְרָהָ֖ם שָׁ֥ב לִמְקֹמֽוֹ׃
(16) The men set out from there and looked down toward Sodom, Abraham walking with them to see them off. (17) Now the LORD had said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, (18) since Abraham is to become a great and populous nation and all the nations of the earth are to bless themselves by him? (19) For I have singled him out, that he may instruct his children and his posterity to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is just and right, in order that the LORD may bring about for Abraham what He has promised him.” (20) Then the LORD said, “The outrage of Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave! (21) I will go down to see whether they have acted altogether according to the outcry that has reached Me; if not, I will take note.” (22) The men went on from there to Sodom, while Abraham remained standing before the LORD. (23) Abraham came forward and said, “Will You sweep away the innocent along with the guilty? (24) What if there should be fifty innocent within the city; will You then wipe out the place and not forgive it for the sake of the innocent fifty who are in it? (25) Far be it from You to do such a thing, to bring death upon the innocent as well as the guilty, so that innocent and guilty fare alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” (26) And the LORD answered, “If I find within the city of Sodom fifty innocent ones, I will forgive the whole place for their sake.” (27) Abraham spoke up, saying, “Here I venture to speak to my Lord, I who am but dust and ashes: (28) What if the fifty innocent should lack five? Will You destroy the whole city for want of the five?” And He answered, “I will not destroy if I find forty-five there.” (29) But he spoke to Him again, and said, “What if forty should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not do it, for the sake of the forty.” (30) And he said, “Let not my Lord be angry if I go on: What if thirty should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” (31) And he said, “I venture again to speak to my Lord: What if twenty should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not destroy, for the sake of the twenty.” (32) And he said, “Let not my Lord be angry if I speak but this last time: What if ten should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not destroy, for the sake of the ten.” (33) When the LORD had finished speaking to Abraham, He departed; and Abraham returned to his place.
Answer 2
initially, he says why do you kill a righteous. 10 = a group, only a group can change the world
Margaret Mead
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/12/change-world/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CNever%20doubt%20that%20a%20small,the%20Year%20Award%20in%201978.
answer 3
we discussed collective punishment and collective reward.
How do we change people's behavior: Do we use guilt trips or by reminding them of their best self and how doing what we think is in line with their best self.
We also discussed Avram's strategy-first he convinced God that wiping the whole city is wrong.
Once he accomplished that he started bargaining.
We applied that to school life and family life- should everybody get a reward when only one person did the righteous thing?
Poems https://parashapoems.wordpress.com/category/book/bereishit/vayeira/
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/challenging-the-heavens/
Answer 1
we discussed the connection between your work on the destruction of biodiversity and the sins contributing to it.
we focused on your first question in verse 17
we brought in the Ramban who wonders who is God talking to and why is he talking.
We mentioned that prayer is thinking out loud that sometimes we need to talk it out
The text suggests that the reason for talking is that God wants Avraham and his descendants-us- to do צדקה ומשפט what is just and right?. Therefore God knows God has to model that with regard to sodom. It is important that parents /teachers/leaders have integrity. That they model what is just and right so children and students get examples of just and right behavior. We spoke about buying electric cars, walking, and biking as a way of modeling reducing pollution that contributes to species extinction.
We also asked if god going down is concrete or metaphorical
וה' אמר אל צבא השמים העומדים עליו או אל המלאכים השלוחים ויתכן שהוא המחשבה כי חשב שלא יתכסה ממנו מפני הטעמים הללו וכן ואני אמרתי בדמי ימי (ישעיהו לח י) וכן ויאמר להכות את דוד ( כא טז) וכן כל אמירה עם הלב מחשבה:
AND THE ETERNAL SAID. I.e., to the host of heaven standing by Him, or to the angel messengers.It is possible that the word amar (He said) refers to thought, meaning that He thought He should not keep it hidden from Abraham on account of these reasons. Similarly: I ‘said,’ in the noontide of my days I shall go; And he ‘said’ to slay David. Likewise all expressions of speaking within the heart refer to thought.
ואברהם הולך וה' אמר. הוא היה מתעסק במצות גמילות חסדים ללות את האורחים וה' אמר שיגלה לו למען אשר יצוה את בניו כאמרם ז''ל שכר מצוה מצוה:
ואברהם הולך..וה' אמר. He was constantly busy with good deeds and the fulfillment of G’d’s commandments, such as to see his guests off and accompany them beyond the entrance of his house. This is the meaning behind the words למען אשר יצוה את בניו וג'; if Avraham saw that G’d had revealed His plans for Sodom to him, immediately after he accompanied the angels, he would understand that the performance of such kind deeds resulted in one’s gaining an ever more intimate relationship with G’d. He would be encouraged to instruct his children, etc., to act in this manner [pointing out positive results which would accrue to them as a result. Ed.] This is what is meant in Avot 4,2 שכר מצוה מצוה, “the reward of performing a mitzvah is .that one will be encouraged to perform another mitzvah.
We started with a review of the idea of a commentator.
We said that commentators often give us an answer but don't articulate their questions.
You identified that the question for Ramban is who was God talking to. He concludes that it is possible that God was thinking out loud.
Then we move to review the commentary of sforno. He links the practice of Commandments (hospitality n this case) to have a relationship with God and suggests that the verses teach that this is key teaching that's Abraham will transmit to his descendants that through the practice of Commandments a person can gain intimacy with God
המכסה אני ראוי שלא לכסות מאברהם מדת טובו ולהודיעו שאם היה בין הרשעים איזה מנין צדיקים יש בו תקות תשובה לרשעים הייתי מטה כלפי חסד להאריך אפילו לרשעים אולי ישובו כי לא יחפוץ במות המת ושמבלי אין תקות תשובה יעשה בם משפט:
המכסה אני, it is appropriate that I do not conceal from Avraham my attribute of goodness; I will inform him that if among all these wicked people in Sodom I find even a quorum of 10 righteous people, this will represent hope that eventually all or most of these people will become penitents. In that event I would bend the scales of justice in favour of the town, giving them an extension of time before destroying them. G’d teaches that He is more interested in the return of sinners to the fold than in administering retribution to them.