How (Not) to Win an Argument: Part I

Sara Wolkenfeld

Fellowship for Emerging Jewish Thought Leaders

In every argument, there are winners and losers...but the winner isn't always right. Through a close reading of an ancient rabbinic story about an oven, walls that move themselves, a short woman and a debate gone wild, we explore the ways in which the Jewish tradition responds to disagreement. How might arguments help us move forward, despite irreconcilable differences? Bring your strong opinions and a willingness to be proven wrong.

This study session was part of Hartman's Summer 2020 Fellowship for Emerging Jewish Thought Leaders.

Part I: Why Argue?

Source 1: Pirkei Avot 5:17

Part II: The Story of the Oven of Akhnai

Source 1: Bava Metzia 59a-b

Think about a time when you argued with someone about a belief or idea. Who won the argument, and why?

Part I: Why Argue?

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

- Ashleigh Brilliant

משנה אבות ה׳:י״ז

(יז) כָּל מַחֲלֹקֶת שֶׁהִיא לְשֵׁם שָׁמַיִם, סוֹפָהּ לְהִתְקַיֵּם. וְשֶׁאֵינָהּ לְשֵׁם שָׁמַיִם, אֵין סוֹפָהּ לְהִתְקַיֵּם...

Pirkei Avot 5:17

(17) Every dispute that is for the sake of Heaven, will in the end endure; But one that is not for the sake of Heaven, will not endure...

This text contrasts two different kinds of arguments. What do you think it means for an argument to be for the sake of heaven? Is that a good thing, or a bad thing?

What do you think it means for an argument to "endure?" Is it better for an argument to endure, or better for it to fade away?

What does it look like to win an argument? How do you know that you've won?

Part II: The Story of The Oven of Akhnai

Cast of Characters:

Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Yehoshua - rabbis of the early Mishnaic period

Rabbi Natan - rabbi of the late Mishnaic period

Rabbi Yirmeya - rabbi of the Talmudic period (generations after Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Yehoshua)

Elijah - the prophet. In Rabbinic literature, he serves as a kind of go-between, transmitting insights and messages from God to the rabbis.

בבא מציעא נ״ט א:י״ב-נ״ט ב:א׳

תנן התם חתכו חוליות ונתן חול בין חוליא לחוליא ר"א מטהר וחכמים מטמאין וזה הוא תנור של עכנאי... תנא באותו היום השיב רבי אליעזר כל תשובות שבעולם ולא קיבלו הימנו

Bava Metzia 59a:12-59b:1

§ We learned in a mishna: If one cut an earthenware oven widthwise into segments, and placed sand between each and every segment, Rabbi Eliezer deems it ritually pure. Because of the sand, its legal status is not that of a complete vessel, and therefore it is not susceptible to ritual impurity. And the Rabbis deem it ritually impure, as it is functionally a complete oven. And this is known as the oven of akhnai...The Sages taught: On that day, when they discussed this matter, Rabbi Eliezer answered all possible answers in the world to support his opinion, but the Rabbis did not accept his explanations from him.

Why do you think that the other rabbis didn't listen to Rabbi Eliezer?

Does it matter that Rabbi Eliezer was in the minority, arguing against a group of rabbis?

בבא מציעא נ״ט ב:ב׳

אמר להם אם הלכה כמותי חרוב זה יוכיח נעקר חרוב ממקומו מאה אמה ואמרי לה ארבע מאות אמה אמרו לו אין מביאין ראיה מן החרוב חזר ואמר להם אם הלכה כמותי אמת המים יוכיחו חזרו אמת המים לאחוריהם אמרו לו אין מביאין ראיה מאמת המים

Bava Metzia 59b:2

After failing to convince the Rabbis logically, Rabbi Eliezer said to them: If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, this carob tree will prove it. The carob tree was uprooted from its place one hundred cubits, and some say four hundred cubits. The Rabbis said to him: One does not cite halakhic proof from the carob tree. Rabbi Eliezer then said to them: If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, the stream will prove it. The water in the stream turned backward and began flowing in the opposite direction. They said to him: One does not cite halakhic proof from a stream.

Why does Rabbi Eliezer think that a carob tree and a stream might help him win his argument?

Why were the rabbis still not convinced by Rabbi Eliezer?

בבא מציעא נ״ט ב:ג׳

חזר ואמר להם אם הלכה כמותי כותלי בית המדרש יוכיחו הטו כותלי בית המדרש ליפול גער בהם רבי יהושע אמר להם אם תלמידי חכמים מנצחים זה את זה בהלכה אתם מה טיבכם לא נפלו מפני כבודו של רבי יהושע ולא זקפו מפני כבודו של ר"א ועדיין מטין ועומדין

Bava Metzia 59b:3

Rabbi Eliezer then said to them: If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, the walls of the study hall will prove it. The walls of the study hall leaned inward and began to fall. Rabbi Yehoshua scolded the walls and said to them: If Torah scholars are contending with each other in matters of halakha, what is the nature of your involvement in this dispute? The Gemara relates: The walls did not fall because of the deference due Rabbi Yehoshua, but they did not straighten because of the deference due Rabbi Eliezer, and they still remain leaning.

The stream and the carob tree don't advance Rabbi Eliezer's argument. Why does he think the walls might help?

The conversation with the walls seems a little off topic. What is the point? Why are the walls ordered to stay out of it, as opposed to the carob and the stream?

Who is winning the argument right now? How do you know?

בבא מציעא נ״ט ב:ד׳-ה׳

חזר ואמר להם אם הלכה כמותי מן השמים יוכיחו יצאתה בת קול ואמרה מה לכם אצל ר"א שהלכה כמותו בכ"מ עמד רבי יהושע על רגליו ואמר (דברים ל, יב) לא בשמים היא מאי לא בשמים היא אמר רבי ירמיה שכבר נתנה תורה מהר סיני אין אנו משגיחין בבת קול שכבר כתבת בהר סיני בתורה (שמות כג, ב) אחרי רבים להטות

Bava Metzia 59b:4-5

Rabbi Eliezer then said to them: If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, Heaven will prove it. A Divine Voice emerged from Heaven and said: Why are you differing with Rabbi Eliezer, as the halakha is in accordance with his opinion in every place that he expresses an opinion? Rabbi Yehoshua stood on his feet and said: It is written: “It is not in heaven” (Deuteronomy 30:12). The Gemara asks: What is the relevance of the phrase “It is not in heaven” in this context? Rabbi Yirmeya says: Since the Torah was already given at Mount Sinai, we do not regard a Divine Voice, as You already wrote at Mount Sinai, in the Torah: “After a majority to incline” (Exodus 23:2). Since the majority of Rabbis disagreed with Rabbi Eliezer’s opinion, the halakha is not ruled in accordance with his opinion.

Pausing the story here for the moment, who would you say is correct? Who won the argument? Why or how did he win?

בבא מציעא נ״ט ב:ה׳

אשכחיה רבי נתן לאליהו א"ל מאי עביד קוב"ה בההיא שעתא א"ל קא חייך ואמר נצחוני בני נצחוני בני

Bava Metzia 59b:5

The Gemara relates: Years after, Rabbi Natan encountered Elijah the prophet and said to him: What did the Holy One, Blessed be He, do at that time, when Rabbi Yehoshua issued his declaration? Elijah said to him: The Holy One, Blessed be He, smiled and said: My children have triumphed over Me; My children have triumphed over Me.

Why do you think God is described as being happy about the situation?

Who won the argument? Why or how did he win?

What is won or lost in this argument? Clearly, the argument has gone beyond an oven. What is proven - or not proven - by this story?

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