Shabbat 135bשבת קל״ה ב
The William Davidson Talmudתלמוד מהדורת ויליאם דוידסון
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135bקל״ה ב

ונתחדשה הלכה

halakha was introduced. No proof can be cited from the observance of mitzvot prior to the revelation at Sinai.

איני והא איתמר יוצא דופן ומי שיש לו שתי ערלות רב הונא ורב חייא בר רב חד אמר מחללין עליו את השבת וחד אמר אין מחללין עד כאן לא פליגי אלא לחלל עליו את השבת אבל לשמנה ודאי מהלינן ליה הא בהא תליא

The Gemara asks: Is that so? Wasn’t it stated that there is a dispute with regard to this halakha? As it was taught with regard to a child born by caesarean section and one who has two foreskins, Rav Huna and Rav Ḥiyya bar Rav disputed their status. One said: One desecrates Shabbat on his behalf and performs the circumcision; and one said: One does not desecrate Shabbat on his behalf. They only disagree with regard to whether or not it is permissible to desecrate Shabbat on his behalf; however, with regard to circumcising him at eight days, in principle, we certainly circumcise him, even though the birth of a child by caesarean section does not render his mother ritually impure due to childbirth. The Gemara answers: The two disputes are interdependent. The one who holds that one desecrates Shabbat for this child’s circumcision also holds that one must circumcise him on the eighth day. The one who holds that one may not desecrate Shabbat for this child’s circumcision holds that one need not circumcise him on the eighth day.

כתנאי יש יליד בית שנימול לאחד ויש יליד בית שנימול לשמנה יש מקנת כסף שנימול לאחד ויש מקנת כסף שנימול לשמנה יש מקנת כסף שנימול לאחד ויש מקנת כסף שנימול לשמונה

The Gemara comments: The issue of Rabbi Asi’s statement that the obligation to circumcise after eight days depends upon whether or not his birth renders his mother ritually impure due to childbirth is parallel to a tannaitic dispute, as we learned: There is a home-born child of a Canaanite maidservant born in a Jewish home, who has the legal status of a Canaanite slave and his Jewish owner is obligated to circumcise him, who is circumcised at the age of one day, i.e., immediately after birth; and there is a home-born child circumcised at eight days. And there is a slave purchased in a money transaction who is circumcised at one day, and there is a slave purchased in a money transaction who is circumcised at eight days.

כיצד לקח שפחה מעוברת ואחר כך ילדה זהו מקנת כסף הנימול לשמונה לקח שפחה וולדה עמה זו היא מקנת כסף שנימול לאחד

The baraita explains: How so? If a Jew purchased a pregnant maidservant and she then gave birth to a child while in his possession; that is a slave purchased in a money transaction who is circumcised at eight days, as the fetus was purchased along with the maidservant. If he purchased a maidservant who had already given birth and purchased her child along with her, he is obligated to circumcise the child as soon as the child enters his possession; this is a slave purchased in a money transaction, who is circumcised at one day.

ויש יליד בית שנימול לשמנה כיצד לקח שפחה ונתעברה אצלו וילדה זהו יליד בית הנימול לשמנה רב חמא אומר ילדה ואחר כך הטבילה זהו יליד בית שנימול לאחד הטבילה ואחר כך ילדה זהו יליד בית הנימול לשמנה

And likewise, there is a home-born child circumcised at eight days. How so? If he bought a maidservant and she became pregnant in his possession and gave birth; that is a home-born child circumcised at eight days. Rav Ḥama says there is a distinction: If the maidservant gave birth and he subsequently had her immerse for the purpose of becoming a maidservant, that is a home-born child circumcised at one day. But if he had her immerse and she then gave birth; that is a home-born child circumcised at eight days.

ותנא קמא לא שני ליה בין הטבילה ואחר כך ילדה בין ילדה ואחר כך הטבילה דאף על גב דאין אמו טמאה לידה נימול לשמנה

And the first tanna does not distinguish between whether he had her immerse and she then gave birth, or whether she gave birth and he then had her immerse. Apparently, even though the child’s birth does not render his mother ritually impure due to childbirth, as she is not obligated in mitzvot before immersing and she is not susceptible to ritual impurity of childbirth, he is circumcised at eight days. The dispute between Rabbi Ḥama and the first tanna revolves around the halakha stated by Rabbi Asi.

(אמר רבא) בשלמא לרבי חמא משכחת לה יליד בית נימול לאחד יליד בית נימול לשמונה מקנת כסף נימול לאחד ומקנת כסף נימול לשמונה ילדה ואחר כך הטבילה זהו יליד בית שנימול לאחד הטבילה ואחר כך ילדה זהו יליד בית שנימול לשמונה

With regard to the dispute between the tanna’im, Rava said: Granted, according to the opinion of Rabbi Ḥama, cases can be found of a home-born child circumcised at one day, a home-born child circumcised at eight days, a slave purchased in a money transaction circumcised at one day, and a slave purchased in a money transaction circumcised at eight days, in the following manner: If a maidservant gave birth and he subsequently had her immerse, that is the case of a home-born child circumcised at one day. If he had her immerse and she then gave birth, that is the case of a home-born child circumcised at eight days.

מקנת כסף נימול לשמנה כגון שלקח שפחה מעוברת והטבילה ואחר כך ילדה מקנת כסף נימול לאחד כגון שלקח זה שפחה וזה עוברה

A slave purchased in a money transaction is circumcised at eight days in a case where a Jew purchased a pregnant maidservant and thereby paid for and purchased the fetus as well, and then had her immerse, and she then gave birth. A slave purchased in a money transaction is circumcised at one day in a case where that person purchased a maidservant, and that person, i.e., someone else, bought her fetus; since the owner of the fetus has no share in its mother, the child may be circumcised immediately after birth.

אלא לתנא קמא בשלמא כולהו משכחת להו אלא יליד בית נימול לאחד היכי משכחת לה

However, according to the opinion of the first tanna, granted that all the cases can be found; however, how can the case of a home-born child circumcised at one day be found?

אמר רבי ירמיה בלוקח שפחה לעוברה

Rabbi Yirmeya said: It can be found in the case of one who purchases a maidservant for the purpose of purchasing rights to her fetus without purchasing the maidservant herself.

הניחא למאן דאמר קנין פירות לאו כקנין הגוף דמי אלא למאן דאמר קנין פירות כקנין הגוף דמי מאי איכא למימר

The Gemara asks: This works out well according to the opinion of the one who said that a transaction to purchase an item for its product is not a transaction to purchase the item itself, i.e., one who purchased a field for its fruit did not purchase the field itself. However, according to the opinion of the one who said that a transaction to purchase an item for its product is a transaction to purchase the item itself, what can be said, as he does not distinguish between the purchase of the maidservant herself and the purchase of the children that she bears?

אמר רב משרשיא בלוקח שפחה על מנת שלא להטבילה

Rav Mesharshiya said: According to this opinion, it must explained as referring to one who purchases a maidservant on condition that he will not have her immerse. They can stipulate that he will not have her immerse as a maidservant and that she will remain a gentile. In that case, the child is a slave born to a Jew, and the mitzva of circumcision is in effect immediately upon birth.

תניא רבן שמעון בן גמליאל אומר כל ששהה שלשים יום באדם אינו נפל שנאמר ופדויו מבן חדש תפדה שמנת ימים בבהמה אינו נפל שנאמר ומיום השמיני והלאה ירצה לקרבן וגו׳

The Gemara cites a related baraita where it was taught that Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel says: With regard to people, any child that remains alive thirty days after birth is no longer suspected of being a stillborn, and is assumed to be a regular child who will go on living. Proof is cited from that which is stated with regard to the laws of redemption and valuations: “And their redemption, from a month old you shall redeem according to your valuation, five shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the Sanctuary; it is twenty gera” (Numbers 18:16), indicating that no value is ascribed to an infant less than a month old, as its viability is uncertain. Likewise, a newborn animal that survives for eight days is no longer suspected of being a stillborn, as it is stated: “When a bullock or a sheep or a goat is born, it shall be seven days under its mother; and from the eighth day and onward it may be accepted for an offering made by fire to the Lord” (Leviticus 22:27).

הא לא שהה ספיקא הוי

The Gemara asks: Is that to say by inference: If the child did not yet remain alive for thirty days, it is considered an uncertainty whether or not it is a stillborn with regard to several halakhot?