Ketubot 8bכתובות ח׳ ב
The William Davidson Talmudתלמוד מהדורת ויליאם דוידסון
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8bח׳ ב

כי תניא ההיא בברכת המזון כי קאמר רבי יוחנן בשורה

The Gemara answers: When that baraita is taught, it is with regard to combining with others to form a quorum of three to recite Grace after Meals, as a mourner is obligated to recite Grace after Meals. However, when Rabbi Yoḥanan says that mourners are not included in the tally, it is with regard to the quorum of ten men required to form a line to comfort the mourners following the burial.

ואלא הא דאמר רבי יצחק אמר רבי יוחנן מברכים ברכת חתנים בעשרה וחתנים מן המנין וברכת אבלים בעשרה ואין אבלים מן המנין ברכה בשורה מי איכא אלא כי קאמר רבי יוחנן ברחבה

And the Gemara raises an objection: However, that which Rabbi Yitzḥak said that Rabbi Yoḥanan said: One recites the blessing of the grooms in a quorum of ten, and the grooms are included in the tally, and one recites the blessing of the mourners in a quorum of ten, and the mourners are not included in the tally. Is there a blessing recited in the line formed to comfort the mourners? Clearly, this statement of Rabbi Yoḥanan cannot be explained as referring to the line. Rather, when Rabbi Yoḥanan said that mourners are not included in the tally, it was with regard to the blessing recited in the square adjacent to the cemetery, where the meal of comfort takes place and various blessings are recited to comfort the mourners. Mourners are not included in the requisite quorum of ten.

ואלא הא דאמר רבי יצחק אמר רבי יוחנן מברכין ברכת חתנים בעשרה כל שבעה וחתנים מן המנין וברכת אבלים בעשרה כל שבעה ואין אבלים מן המנין ברכת רחבה כל שבעה מי איכא משכחת לה בפנים חדשות

The Gemara asks: However, with regard to that which Rabbi Yitzḥak said that Rabbi Yoḥanan said: One recites the blessing of the grooms in a quorum of ten all seven days of celebration, and the grooms are included in the tally; and one recites the blessing of the mourners all seven days of mourning in a quorum of ten, and the mourners are not included in the tally, is there a blessing recited in the square all seven days? The meal of comfort and the associated blessings take place directly after the burial, not throughout the seven days of mourning. The Gemara answers: You find blessings recited throughout the seven-day mourning period in a case where new faces who did not attend the burial are present. In that case, eulogies and words of comfort are repeated, and the blessing of the mourners is recited again.

כי הא דרב חייא בר אבא מקרי בניה דריש לקיש הוה ואמרי לה מתני בריה דריש לקיש הוה שכיב ליה ינוקא יומא קמא לא אזל לגביה למחר דבריה ליהודה בר נחמני מתורגמניה אמר ליה קום אימא מלתא כל קביל ינוקא פתח ואמר (דברים לב, יט) וירא ה' וינאץ מכעס בניו ובנותיו דור שאבות מנאצים להקב"ה כועס על בניהם ועל בנותיהם ומתים כשהם קטנים

§ This is similar to that incident involving Rav Ḥiyya bar Abba, who was the Bible teacher of the sons of Reish Lakish, and some say that he was the Mishna teacher of the son of Reish Lakish. His child died. On the first day, Reish Lakish did not go to comfort him. The next day, he took Yehuda bar Naḥmani, his disseminator, with him to comfort Rav Ḥiyya bar Abba. Reish Lakish said to his disseminator: Stand and say a matter of comfort with regard to the death of the child. He began and said: “And the Lord saw it and He abhorred them, due to the provocation of His sons and His daughters” (Deuteronomy 32:19). A generation in which the fathers abhor the Holy One, Blessed be He, He is angered at their sons and their daughters, and they die when they are small.

ואיכא דאמרי בחור הוה והכי קאמר ליה (ישעיהו ט, טז) על כן על בחוריו לא ישמח ה' ואת יתומיו ואת אלמנותיו לא ירחם כי כולו חנף ומרע וכל פה דובר נבלה בכל זאת לא שב אפו ועוד ידו נטויה מאי ועוד ידו נטויה אמר רב חנן בר רב הכל יודעין כלה למה נכנסה לחופה אלא כל המנבל פיו ומוציא דבר נבלה מפיו אפילו נחתם לו גזר דינו של שבעים שנה לטובה נהפך עליו לרעה

And there are those who say that the child who died was not a small child, but a youth, and this is what the disseminator said to him: “Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, nor shall He have compassion on their orphans and widows, for everyone is a flatterer and an evildoer, and every mouth speaks obscenity. For all this His anger is not turned away, and His hand is still outstretched” (Isaiah 9:16). What is the meaning of the phrase “And His hand is still outstretched”? Rav Ḥanan bar Rav said: Everyone knows why a bride enters the wedding canopy. It is the step before consummation of the marriage. However, one should not speak about it unnecessarily, as anyone who profanes his mouth and issues a matter of profanity from his mouth, even if a positive decree of seventy years was sealed for him, nevertheless, it is transformed for him into an evil decree.

אתא לנחומי צעורי קמצער ליה הכי קאמר ליה חשיב את לאתפוסי אדרא

The Gemara asks about this incident: He came at the behest of Reish Lakish to comfort Rav Ḥiyya bar Abba and instead he upset him by attributing the death of his son to his transgressions. The Gemara answers: It was not his intention to upset Rav Ḥiyya bar Abba and to attribute the death of his son to his actions. Rather, this is what he is saying to him: You are sufficiently significant to be seized, i.e., to die or suffer, for the sins of the generation, as it is specifically the righteous few who are punished for the transgressions of a sinful generation.

אמר ליה קום אימא מלתא כנגד שבחו של הקב"ה פתח ואמר האל הגדול ברוב גדלו אדיר וחזק ברוב נוראות מחיה מתים במאמרו עושה גדולות עד אין חקר ונפלאות עד אין מספר בא"י מחיה המתים

Reish Lakish said to his disseminator: Stand and say a statement with regard to the praiseworthiness of the Holy One, Blessed be He. He began and said: God, Who is great in the abundance of His greatness, mighty and strong in the abundance of His awesome deeds, Who revives the dead in fulfillment of His statement, Who does great deeds beyond comprehension, wondrous deeds without number. Blessed are You, Lord, Who revives the dead.

א"ל קום אימא מלתא כנגד אבלים פתח ואמר אחינו המיוגעים המדוכאין באבל הזה תנו לבבכם לחקור את זאת זאת היא עומדת לעד נתיב הוא מששת ימי בראשית רבים שתו רבים ישתו כמשתה ראשונים כך משתה אחרונים אחינו בעל נחמות ינחם אתכם ברוך מנחם אבלים

Reish Lakish said to him: Stand and say a statement with regard to the mourners. He began and said: Our brothers, who are exhausted, who are overwhelmed by this mourning, set your heart to examine this: This is what stands forever. It is a path from the six days of Creation, i.e., death exists since Creation, and it is well known that this is the fate of man. Many have drunk from the poisonous cup of death, and many will drink. As was the consequence of the drink of the first who have drunk, so too will be the consequence of the drink of the last who will drink. Our brothers, may the Master of solace comfort you. Blessed are You, Lord, Who comforts the mourners.

אמר אביי רבים שתו לימא רבים ישתו לא לימא משתה ראשונים לימא משתה אחרונים לא לימא דאר"ש בן לקיש וכן תנא משמיה דר' יוסי לעולם אל יפתח אדם פיו לשטן אמר רב יוסף מאי קרא (ישעיהו א, ט) כסדום היינו לעמורה דמינו מאי אהדר ליה שמעו דבר ה' קציני סדום וגו'

Abaye said with regard to the statement concerning the mourners: Let him say: Many have drunk; let him not say: Many will drink. Let him say: The drink of the first; let him not say: The drink of the last. This is as Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish said, and likewise it was taught in the name of Rabbi Yosei: A person should never open his mouth to Satan and speculate about potential disasters. Rav Yosef said: What is the verse from which it is derived? “We should have almost been as Sodom, we should have been like unto Gomorrah” (Isaiah 1:9), after which, what did the prophet reply to them? “Hear the word of the Lord, rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, people of Gomorrah” (Isaiah 1:10). Isaiah drew the analogy and immediately it was realized.

א"ל קום אימא מלתא כנגד מנחמי אבלים פתח ואמר אחינו גומלי חסדים בני גומלי חסדים המחזיקים בבריתו של אברהם אבינו (שנאמר (בראשית יח, יט) כי ידעתיו למען אשר יצוה את בניו וגו') אחינו בעל הגמול ישלם לכם גמולכם ברוך אתה משלם הגמול

Reish Lakish said to the disseminator: Stand and say a statement with regard to those who comfort the mourners. He began and said: Our brothers, bestowers of loving-kindness, sons of bestowers of loving-kindness, who embrace the covenant of Abraham our Patriarch, as it is stated: “For I know him, that he will command his children…to do righteousness and justice” (Genesis 18:19). Our brothers, may the Master of reward pay you your just deserts. Blessed are You, Lord, Who pays the just deserts.

א"ל קום אימא מלתא כנגד כל ישראל פתח ואמר רבון העולמים פדה והצל מלט הושע עמך ישראל מן הדבר ומן החרב ומן הביזה ומן השדפון ומן הירקון ומכל מיני פורעניות המתרגשות ובאות לעולם טרם נקרא ואתה תענה ברוך אתה עוצר המגפה

Reish Lakish said to the disseminator: Stand and say a statement with regard to the entire Jewish people. He began and said: Master of the worlds, redeem and save, rescue and deliver Your people, Israel, from the pestilence and from the sword, and from spoil, and from the blight, and from the mildew, and from all types of afflictions that suddenly erupt and come to the world. Before we call and You will respond. Blessed are You, Lord, Who halts the plague. Apparently, several blessings are recited on the days following the burial.

אמר עולא ואמרי לה במתניתא תנא עשרה כוסות תקנו חכמים בבית האבל שלשה קודם אכילה כדי לפתוח את בני מעיו שלשה בתוך אכילה כדי לשרות אכילה שבמעיו וארבעה לאחר אכילה אחד כנגד הזן ואחד כנגד ברכת הארץ ואחד כנגד בונה ירושלים ואחד כנגד הטוב והמטיב

§ In connection with comforting mourners, Ulla said, and some say that it was taught in a baraita: The Sages instituted ten cups of wine to be drunk in the house of the mourner: Three cups prior to the meal, in order to open his intestines, i.e., whet his appetite; three during the meal, to soak the food in his intestines in order to facilitate digestion; and four cups after the meal, each corresponding to a blessing in the Grace after Meals. One corresponds to the first blessing: Who feeds all; one corresponds to the second blessing, the blessing of the land; one corresponding to the third blessing: Who builds Jerusalem; and one corresponding to the fourth blessing: Who is good and does good.

הוסיפו עליהם ארבעה אחד כנגד חזני העיר ואחד כנגד פרנסי העיר ואחד כנגד בית המקדש ואחד כנגד רבן גמליאל התחילו היו שותין ומשתכרין החזירו הדבר ליושנה

Later, the Sages added to those four additional blessings: One, noting the actions of the attendants of the city [ḥazzanei ha’ir], who tend to burials and other communal needs; one, noting the actions of the leaders of the city, who would provide funding for the burial of the poor; one, noting the Temple, commemorating its destruction; and one, noting the actions of Rabban Gamliel. The people began observing this ordinance instituted by the Sages, and they would drink and become intoxicated. Therefore, the Sages restored the matter to its previous status and established that they drink no more than ten cups.

מאי רבן גמליאל דתניא בראשונה היתה הוצאת המת קשה לקרוביו יותר ממיתתו עד שהיו מניחים אותו ובורחין עד שבא רבן גמליאל ונהג קלות בעצמו והוציאוהו בכלי פשתן ונהגו כל העם אחריו להוציא בכלי פשתן אמר רב פפא והאידנא נהוג עלמא אפילו בצרדא בר זוזא:

What is the connection between Rabban Gamliel and a house of mourning? It is as it is taught in a baraita: Initially, the funeral expenditures for the deceased were more taxing for his relatives than his death, as the burials were opulent, until it reached a point where people would abandon the deceased and flee. This continued until Rabbi Gamliel came and conducted himself in a self-deprecatory manner, instructing the people that they were to take him for burial in plain linen garments. And all the people conducted themselves following his example, and instructed their families to take them for burial in plain linen garments. Rav Pappa said: And today, everyone is accustomed to bury the dead in plain garments, even in rough cloth [tzerada] worth one zuz.

אמר רבי אלעזר

Rabbi Elazar said: