Ketubot 45bכתובות מ״ה ב
The William Davidson Talmudתלמוד מהדורת ויליאם דוידסון
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45bמ״ה ב

אימור דשמעינן ליה לר"ש דאזיל אף בתר ידיעה דאזיל בתר ידיעה ולא אזיל בתר חטאה מי שמעת ליה א"כ לייתי קרבן כי דהשתא משוח פר ונשיא שעיר

The Gemara questions this comparison: Say that we heard that Rabbi Shimon follows even the awareness, i.e., Rabbi Shimon takes into consideration the time when the sin became known to the High Priest or king, and maintains that he cannot bring the offering of a commoner. However, did you hear him say that he follows the time of the awareness and does not follow the time of the sin? If so, let him bring the offering that befits his current status: One anointed to be the High Priest brings a bullock, and a prince, i.e., a king, offers a goat. Consequently, there is no proof that, according to Rabbi Shimon, if the sin of a betrothed young woman became known after she reached majority, she is sentenced to strangulation like a grown woman.

האמר ליה ר' יוחנן לתנא תני תידון בסקילה ואמאי נערה המאורסה אמר רחמנא והא בוגרת היא א"ר אילעא אמר קרא הנערה הנערה שהיתה כבר

The Gemara responds: Nevertheless, this issue is subject to a dispute. Didn’t Rabbi Yoḥanan say to the tanna, i.e., the Sage who would recite statements of tanna’im before him and who recited Sheila’s ruling with regard to a betrothed young woman: Teach that she is sentenced to stoning rather than strangulation? The Gemara questions Rabbi Yoḥanan’s statement: But why? The Merciful One says: A betrothed young woman, but this one is a grown woman. Rabbi Ile’a said: The verse states: The young woman, in reference to the young woman that she already was at the time of her sin, despite the fact that she now has a different status.

א"ל רבי חנניא לרבי אילעא אי הכי מילקא נמי לילקי ומאה סלע נמי לישלם א"ל רחמנא ניצלן מהאי דעתא אדרבה רחמנא ניצלן מדעתא דידך

Rabbi Ḥanina said to Rabbi Ile’a: If so, if her status is determined according to the time of her transgression, let the husband who defames her also be flogged, and let him also pay the one hundred sela if his claim turns out to have been unfounded. Rabbi Ile’a said to him: May the Merciful One save us from following this opinion, as your argument is illogical. Rabbi Ḥanina replied: On the contrary, may the Merciful One save us from your opinion, as yours is the baseless opinion.

וטעמא מאי אמר רבי יצחק בר אבין ואיתימא רבי יצחק בר אבא זו מעשיה גרמו לה וזה עקימת שפתיו גרמו לו זו מעשיה גרמו לה כשהיא זנאי נערה זנאי וזה עקימת שפתיו גרמו לו אימת קא מיחייב ההיא שעתא וההיא שעתא בוגרת הואי

The Gemara asks: And what is the reason that she is considered a young woman with regard to stoning but a grown woman when it comes to the fine? Rabbi Yitzḥak bar Avin said, and some say this answer was given by Rabbi Yitzḥak bar Abba: With regard to this one, i.e., the woman, who sinned, her act of adultery caused her punishment, whereas that one, i.e., the husband who wrongfully defamed his wife, the twisting of his lips caused his punishment, i.e., he sinned by speaking. He elaborates: This one, her action caused her punishment. When she committed adultery, she was a young woman who committed adultery, and she is sentenced accordingly. And that one, the twisting of his lips caused his punishment. When does he become liable? At that time when he defamed her, and at that time his wife was a grown woman.

ת"ר נערה המאורסה שזינתה סוקלין אותה על פתח בית אביה אין לה פתח בית האב סוקלין אותה על פתח שער העיר ההיא ובעיר שרובה עובדי כוכבים סוקלין אותה על פתח בית דין כיוצא בדבר אתה אומר העובד עבודת כוכבים סוקלין אותו על שער שעבד בו ובעיר שרובה עובדי כוכבים סוקלין אותו על פתח בית דין

§ The Sages taught in a baraita: In the case of a betrothed young woman who committed adultery, one stones her at the entrance to her father’s house. If she does not have an entrance to her father’s house, one stones her at the entrance to the gate of that city. And in a city that is mostly populated by gentiles, where she cannot be stoned at the city entrance, one stones her at the entrance to the court. In a similar manner, you say: With regard to one who engaged in idol worship, one stones him at the entrance to the gate where he worshipped, and in a city that is mostly inhabited by gentiles one stones him at the entrance to the court.

מנא הני מילי דתנו רבנן שעריך זה שער שעבד בו אתה אומר שער שעבד בו או אינו אלא שער שנידון בו

The Gemara asks: From where are these matters derived, that one stones an idol worshipper in the place where he worshipped? As the Sages taught: It states with regard to one who worshipped an idol: “Then you shall bring forth that man or that women who have done this evil thing, to your gates…and you shall stone them with stones that they die” (Deuteronomy 17:5). “Your gates,” this is the gate where he worshipped idolatry. The offender is taken there to be stoned. Do you say it is the gate where he worshipped, or perhaps it is only the gate where he was sentenced, i.e., the gate of the court?

נאמר שעריך למטה ונאמר שעריך למעלה מה שעריך האמור למעלה שער שעבד בו אף שעריך האמור למטה שער שעבד בו

The Gemara answers: It is stated “your gates” below, in that verse, and is stated “your gates” above, in this verse: “If there is found in the midst of you, within any of your gates…a man or woman who does that which is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing His covenant” (Deuteronomy 17:2). Just as “your gates” stated above is referring to the gate where he worshipped, so too the phrase “your gates” stated below, with regard to execution, means the gate where he worshipped idols.

דבר אחר שעריך ולא שערי עובדי כוכבים האי שעריך הא אפיקתיה אם כן לימא קרא שער מאי שעריך שמע מינה תרתי

Alternatively, the idol worshipper is executed at “your gates,” and not at the gates of gentiles. The Gemara asks: This term, “your gates,” you have already used it to indicate that he is stoned at the gate of the city where he worshipped idols. How, then, can you derive another halakha from this expression? The Gemara answers: If so, if it teaches only one halakha, let the verse say only the word gate. For what reason does it state “your gates”? This indicates that the verse is referring to the gates of cities inhabited by Jews, and therefore one can conclude two conclusions from it.

אשכחן עבודת כוכבים נערה המאורסה מנא לן

The Gemara asks: We found a source that indicates that in a case of idolatrous worship, the perpetrator is stoned at the gate of the city where he committed his sin. From where do we derive that a betrothed young woman who is not stoned at the entrance to her father’s house is stoned at the gate of the city?

א"ר אבהו גמר פתח מפתח ופתח משער ושער משעריך

Rabbi Abbahu said: One derives this by verbal analogy, as follows: The meaning of the term “entrance” (Deuteronomy 22:21), stated with regard to a betrothed woman who committed adultery, is derived from the term “entrance” that appears with regard to the Tabernacle, in the verse “The entrance of the gate of the courtyard” (Numbers 4:26); and the meaning of this usage of the term entrance is derived from the term “gate,” which appears in the same phrase; and the meaning of this usage of the term “gate” is derived from the term “your gates” stated with regard to idolatry. This teaches that a young woman who was betrothed and committed adultery is executed at the gate of the city, similar to one who engaged in idol worship.

תנו רבנן המוציא שם רע לוקה ונותן מאה סלע רבי יהודה אומר ללקות לוקה מכל מקום מאה סלע בעל נותן לא בעל אינו נותן

§ The Sages taught in a baraita: One who defames his wife is flogged and gives one hundred sela. Rabbi Yehuda says: As for flogging, he is flogged in any case. However, with regard to the one hundred sela, if he defamed her after he had intercourse with her, he gives the money. If he did not yet have intercourse with her, he does not give her this sum.

קא מיפלגי בפלוגתא דרבי אליעזר בן יעקב ורבנן והכי קאמר המוציא שם רע לוקה ונותן מאה סלע בין בעל בין שלא בעל כרבנן ר' יהודה אומר ללקות לוקה מ"מ מאה סלע בעל נותן לא בעל אינו נותן כר"א בן יעקב

The Gemara comments: These tanna’im disagree with regard to the dispute between Rabbi Eliezer ben Ya’akov and the Rabbis, and this is what the first tanna is saying: The defamer is flogged and gives one hundred sela, whether he had intercourse with his wife or whether he did not have intercourse with her, in accordance with the opinion of the Rabbis. Rabbi Yehuda says: As for flogging, he is flogged in any case, but with regard to the one hundred sela, if he had intercourse he gives the money, whereas if he did not have intercourse he does not give it to her. This is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer ben Ya’akov, that the halakha of a defamer applies only to a husband who had relations with his wife.

איכא דאמרי כולה כרבי אליעזר בן יעקב והכי קאמר המוציא שם רע לוקה ונותן מאה סלע והוא שבעל רבי יהודה אומר ללקות לוקה מ"מ

There are those who say that this entire baraita is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer ben Ya’akov, and this is what the baraita is saying: The defamer is flogged and gives one hundred sela, but this applies only if he previously had intercourse with his wife. Rabbi Yehuda says: As for flogging, he is flogged in any case, as only the fine is dependent on the couple having previously had intercourse.

וסבר רבי יהודה ללקות לוקה מ"מ והתניא רבי יהודה אומר בעל לוקה לא בעל אינו לוקה אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק לוקה מכת מרדות מדרבנן

The Gemara asks: And does Rabbi Yehuda hold that with regard to flogging, he is flogged in any case? But isn’t it taught in a baraita that Rabbi Yehuda says: If he had intercourse with his wife before he defamed her, he is flogged; but if he did not have intercourse with his wife before he defamed her, he is not flogged? In answer to this question, Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak said: When Rabbi Yehuda said that he is flogged even if he had not yet had intercourse with his wife, he was referring to lashes for rebelliousness [mardut], which apply by rabbinic law. Since he lied, defamed his wife, and endangered her life by accusing her of a sin that carries the death penalty, the court punishes him, but this punishment does not apply by Torah law.