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Talmud Commentary: Bavli 2/8. bSukkah 29a-b (mSukkah 2:9)

@Tal Ilan

משנה: ירדו גשמים (מאימתי מותר לפנות? משתסרח המקפה משלו) [...] תנו רבנן:

Mishnah: If rains fell (from [what point in time] is one allowed to vacate [the Sukkah]? From [the time] when his stew begins to stink.)

היה אוכל בסוכה וירדו גשמים וירד, אין מטריחין אותו לעלות עד שיגמור סעודתו. היה ישן תחת הסוכה וירדו גשמים וירד, אין מטריחין אותו לעלות עד שיאור.

Our Rabbis taught: [If] he were eating in the Sukkah, and rain fell, and he descended, one does not bother him to ascend [again] until he has finished his meal. [If] he were sleeping under the Sukkah, and rain fell and he descended, one does not bother him to ascend [again] until it becomes light (שיאור).

היה אוכל בסוכה וירדו עליו גשמים והלך ועמד לו, אע"פ שפסקו גשמים אין מחייבין אותו לחזור עד שיגמור. היה ישן בסוכה וירדו עליו גשמים ועמד והלך לו, אע"פ שפסקו גשמים אין מחייבין אותו לחזור עד שייעור.

[If] he were eating in the Sukkah, and rain fell on him, and he ceased [eating], even if the rain stopped he is not obliged to return until he has finished. [If] he were sleeping in the Sukkah, and rain fell on him, and he got up and went, he is not obliged to return until he wake up (שיעור).

איבעיא להו: עד שיעור, או עד שיאור? תא שמע: עד שיאור, ויעלה עמוד השחר. תרתי, אלא אימא: עד שיעור ויעלה עמוד השחר.
משנה: משל למה הדבר דומה? (לעבד שבא למזוג כוס לרבו ושפך לו קיתון על פניו.) איבעיא להו: מי שפך למי? תא שמע, דתניא: שפך לו רבו קיתון על פניו, ואמר לו: אי אפשי בשמושך. תנו רבנן:

בזמן שהחמה לוקה, סימן רע לכל העולם כולו. משל למה הדבר דומה? למלך בשר ודם שעשה סעודה לעבדיו, והניח פנס לפניהם. כעס עליהם ואמר לעבדו: טול פנס מפניהם והושיבם בחושך.

It was asked: Is until he wake up (שיעור) or until it became light (שיאור) implied? Come hear: Till it becomes light and the pillar of dawn rise. Both, for you could also say: Until he wake up and the pillar of dawn rise.

Mishnah: What does this resemble? (A slave who is about to pour [a drink] for his master and he poured a [whole] jug on his face).

They inquired: Who poured on whom? Come hear, as it is taught: His master poured the jug on his face and said to him: I cannot stand your service. It is taught:

When the sun is eclipsed it is a bad sign to the entire world. To what may this be likened? To a king of flesh and blood who prepared a banquet for his slaves and placed a lamp before them. When he became angry with them he said to his slave: Remove the lamp from their presence and seat them in darkness.

בזמן שהמאורות לוקין סימן רע לאומות העולם. משל למלך בשר ודם שבנה פלטרין ושכללה והתקין בה את הסעודה ואחר כך הכניס את האורחין. כעס עליהן, אמ' לשמש, ונטל את הנר מלפניהן, ונמצאו כולן יושבין בחשיכה.

When the luminaries are eclipsed it is a bad sign for the nations of the world. This can be likened to a king of flesh and blood who built a palace and perfected it and made a banquet in it and then let the guests in. He [then] became angry with them. He instructed the servant who removed the candle from among them, and they found themselves all sitting in darkness.

רבי מאיר אומר: כל זמן שמאורות לוקין, סימן רע לשונאיהם של ישראל, מפני שמלומדין במכותיהן. משל לסופר שבא לבית הספר ורצועה בידו. מי דואג? מי שרגיל ללקות בכל יום ויום, הוא דואג.

Rabbi Me’ir says: Whenever the luminaries are in eclipse it is a bad sign for the enemies of Israel, for they are used to their whippings. This is likened to a scribe who entered school with a whip in his hand. Who is worried? He who is used to being whipped every single day, he is worried.

היה ר' מאיר או': בזמן שהמאורות לוקין, סימן רע לשונאיהן של ישראל, מפני שהן למודי מכות. משל לסופר שנכנס לבית הספר ואמ': הביאו לי רצועה. מי דואג? מי שהוא למוד להיות לוקה.

Rabbi Me’ir used to say: When the luminaries are in eclipse it is a bad sign for the enemies of Israel, for they are used to being whipped. This is likened to a scribe who entered a school and said: Bring me a whip. Who is worried? He who is used to being whipped.

בזמן שהחמה לוקה, סימן רע לעובדי כוכבים. לבנה לוקה, סימן רע לשונאיהם של ישראל, מפני שישראל מונין ללבנה ועובדי כוכבים לחמה.
לוקה במזרח, סימן רע ליושבי מזרח. במערב, סימן רע ליושבי מערב. באמצע הרקיע, סימן רע לכל העולם כולו. פניו דומין לדם, חרב בא לעולם. לשק, חיצי רעב באין לעולם. לזו ולזו, חרב וחיצי רעב באין לעולם. לקה בכניסתו, פורענות שוהה לבוא. ביציאתו, ממהרת לבא. ויש אומרין: חילוף הדברים. ואין לך כל אומה ואומה שלוקה, שאין אלהיה לוקה עמה, שנאמר: "ובכל אלהי מצרים אעשה שפטים (שמות יב יב). ובזמן שישראל עושין רצונו של מקום, אין מתיראין מכל אלו, שנאמר: "כה אמר ה' אל דרך הגויים אל תלמדו ומאותות השמים אל תחתו כי יחתו הגויים מהמה" (ירמיה י ב).

When the sun is in eclipse it is a bad sign for the star worshipers. When the moon is in eclipse it is a bad sign for the enemies of Israel, because the star worshipers count [time] by the sun and Israel count by the moon. [When] the eclipse is in the east, it is a bad sign for the inhabitants of the east. In the west it is a bad sign for the inhabitants of the west. In the middle of the sky, it is a bad sign for the entire world. When its face appears similar [in color] to blood, a sword comes to the world. When to sack, arrows of hunger come to the world. To both, both a sword and arrows of hunger come to the world. When it is eclipsed at its entrance, disaster is slow in coming. When at its exit, disaster is quick to come. And some say: It is the other way around. There is no nation which is eclipsed, whose god is not eclipsed with it, as it is said: “And I will mete out punishment to all the gods of Egypt” (Ex 12:12). And when Israel do the will of God they do not worry about all these, as it is written “Thus says : Learn not the ways of the nations, nor be dismayed by the signs of the heavens, because the nations are dismayed at them” (Jer 10:2).

בזמן שחמה לוקה, סימן רע לאומות העולם. לבנה לוקה, סימן רע לשונאיהם של ישראל, מפני שהגוים מונין לחמה וישראל מונין ללבנה.
בזמן שלוקה במזרח, סימן רע ליושבי מזרח. במערב, סימן רע ליושבי מערב. באמצע, סימן רע לעולם. בזמן שנהפכו כמין דם, פורענות של חרב בא לעולם. כמין שק, פורענות של דבר ושל רעב בא לעולם. בזמן שלקו בכניסתן, פורענותן שוהא לבוא. ביציאתן, פורענות ממהרת לבא. ויש או': חלוף דברים. אין לך כל אומה ואומה שלוקה, שאין אלהות שלה לוקין עמה, שנ': "ובכל אלהי מצרים וגו'" (שמות יב יב).
בזמן שישראל עסוקין בתורה, אין דואגין מכל אלה, שנ': "כה אמר ה' אל דרך הגוים אל תלמודו וגו'" (ירמיה י ב).

When the sun is in eclipse it is a bad sign for the nations of the world. When the moon is in eclipse it is a bad sign for the enemies of Israel, because the gentiles count [time] by the sun and Israel count by the moon. When the eclipse is in the east, it is a bad sign for the inhabitants of the east. In the west it is a bad sign for the inhabitants of the west. In the middle it is a bad sign for the world.[1] When they change to [the color] of blood, disaster by sword comes to the world. When to [the color] of a sack, a disaster of plague and hunger comes to the world. When they are eclipsed at their entrance, disaster is slow in coming. When at their exit, disaster is quick to come. And some say: It is the other way around. There is no nation which is eclipsed, whose god is not eclipsed with it, as it is said: “And I will mete out punishment to all the gods of Egypt” (Ex 12:12). When Israel are engaged in the Torah they do not worry about all these, as it is written “Thus says 'ה : Learn not the ways of the nations etc.” (Jer 10:2).


[1] Another early version of this midrash is found in MekhY Bo, pisha 1: “When the sun is eclipsed it is a bad sign for the gentiles, for they count [time] according to the sun, and when the moon is in eclipse it is a bad sign for the enemies of Israel, for they count [time] according to the moon. Rabbi Me’ir says: When the sun is in eclipse in the east it is a bad sign for the inhabitants of the east and when in the west it is a bad sign for the inhabitants of the west. Rabbi Yoshaya says: When the signs of the zodiac are in eclipse in the east it is a bad sign for the inhabitants of the east and when in the west it is a bad sign for the inhabitants of the west. Rabbi Yonantan says: These and these where given to the gentiles, as it is written “Thus says : Learn not the ways of the nations, nor be dismayed by the signs of the heavens” (Jer 10:2) (כשהחמה וקה סימן רע לגוים, שהם מונים לחמה, וכשהלבנה לוקה סימן רע לשונאיהם של ישראל, שהם מונים ללבנה. ר ' מאיר: אומר כשהחמה לוקה במזרח, סימן רע ליושבי מזרח, במערב, סימן רע ליושבי מערב. ר' יאשיה אומר כשהמזלות לוקים במזרח, סימן רע ליושבי מזרח, במערב, סימן רע ליושבי מערב. ר' יונתן אומר: אלו ואלו נתנו לגוים, שנאמר: "כה אמר ה' אל דרך הגוים אל תלמודו ומאותות השמים אל תחתו" [ירמיה י ב]). There are some differences between this tannaitic text and our Tosefta but they are not significant and it is not clear which one is earlier.

גויים יחתו, ואין ישראל יחתו. תנו רבנן: בשביל ארבעה דברים חמה לוקה: על אב בית דין שמת ואינו נספד כהלכה, ועל נערה המאורסה שצעקה בעיר ואין מושיע לה, ועל משכב זכור, ועל שני אחין שנשפך דמן כאחד.

The gentiles are dismayed but not Israel. Our rabbis taught: On account of four things is the sun in eclipse: On account of the head of the court of law who died and was not mourned fittingly, on account of a betrothed maiden who cried out aloud in the city and there was none to save her, on account of sodomy, and on account of two brothers whose blood was shed at the same time.

ובשביל ארבעה דברים מאורות לוקין: על כותבי פלסתר, ועל מעידי עדות שקר, ועל מגדלי בהמה דקה בארץ ישראל, ועל קוצצי אילנות טובות. ובשביל ארבעה דברים נכסי בעלי בתים נמסרין למלכות: על משהי שטרות פרועים, ועל מלוי ברבית, ועל שהיה ספק בידם למחות ולא מיחו, ועל שפוסקים צדקה ברבים ואינן נותנין.

On account of four things are luminaries eclipsed: On account of writers of slander (plaster), and on account of perjurers, and on account of those who raise small cattle in the Land of Israel, and on account of those who cut down good trees.

On account of four things is the property of householders given over to the authorities: On account of those who delay [the return of] paid bonds, on account of usurers, on account of one who could have protested but did not, and on account of those who promise charity in public but do not give any.

מפני ארבעה דברים מאורות לוקין: מפני כותבי פלסטיר, ומפני מעידי עדות שקר, ומפני מגדלי בהמה דקה, ומפני קוצצי אילנות טובות.
מפני ארבעה דברים בעלי בתי ישראל נמסרין למלכות: מפני כובשין שטרות פרועין, ומפני מלוה בריבית, ומפני שפוסקין צדקה ואין נותנין, ושספק בידן למחות ואינן מוחין.

Because of four things are luminaries eclipsed: Because of writers of slander (plaster), and because of perjurers, and because of those who raise small cattle, and because of those who cut down good trees.

Because of four things are the householders of Israel given over to the authorities: Because of those who withhold paid bonds, because of usurers, because of those who promise charity but do not give any, and because of those who can protest but do not.

אמר רב: בשביל ארבעה דברים נכסי בעלי בתים יוצאין לטמיון: על כובשי שכר שכיר, ועל עושקי שכר שכיר, ועל שפורקין עול מעל צואריהן ונותנין על חבריהן, ועל גסות הרוח, וגסות הרוח כנגד כולן.

Rav said: On account of four things is the property of householders taken away by the [Roman] treasury (טמיון temaion): Because of those who withhold the wages of workers, because of those who manipulate the wages of workers, because of those who remove the yoke from their shoulders and put it on the shoulders of others and because of impertinence. And impertinence is greater than all [others].

@General observations

This short sugya is a response to mSuk 2:9 and as such, an expansion and reworking of the Tosefta parallel to it. In the mishnah we are informed that if it rains while a man is fulfilling the commandment of eating in the sukkah, he is entitled to leave and continue eating elsewhere only when his dish is on the verge of being destroyed. This statement is followed in an unusual fashion for the Mishnah by a parable which explains to what one may compare rainfall in Sukkot. It is like a king who, by throwing water on his slave, punishes and shames the latter while he is performing a service for the former. The king obviously stands for God and the servant is the observant Jew performing the commandment of sukkah. From this we can deduce that rain, while being eagerly anticipated afterwards,[1] is not seen as a positive sign during Sukkot.

The Tosefta is much more detailed here. tsuk 2:4 explains that rainfall also exempts a man from sleeping in the sukkah, and not just while it is raining but for the entire night. tsuk 2:5 now reverts to the issue of an eclipse. The logic for this seems to be that not just rain in Sukkot but also other natural phenomena can be perceived as signs of God’s displeasure. The Tosefta lists eight public moral sins such as slander, usury and perjury, which lead to God’s displeasure and to the eclipse of the heavenly luminaries. tsuk 2:6 is a rather long aggadic digression about eclipses in general, and about who they are intended to warn. It is considerably more optimistic in tone than the previous halakhah, because it understands the luminaries as serving as warning only for the gentiles, and not for Israel who, according to Jer 10:2, are “dismayed by the signs of the heavens.”

The Babylonian sugya changes this take on the mishnah only marginally. It cites all the Tosefta texts, but reverses the order of 2:5 and 2:6. It makes clear that the halakhah in tsuk 2:4 is associated with the first part of the mishnah, while tsuk 2:6 is associated with the parable presented in the Mishnah and it adds some minor comments to the text of the Tosefta as follows:

1. It inquires whether the reference to the length of time a person is allowed to stay out of his sukkah at night following a rainfall is described by a word spelt שיעור or by a word spelt שיאור. The difference is in one letter (aleph and ‘ain) and in a language which does not pronounce the gutturals the two also sound exactly the same. The stama brings another version of this tannaitic tradition which is supposed to clinch the argument in favor of the form שיאור (till it becomes light) but in the end remains undecided.

2. Since the formulation is not clear, our sugya inquired who in the parable threw water at whom, the master on the slave or the slave on the master. Here again an alternative tannaitic tradition clarifies that it is the master who wets the slave.

3. At the end of the midrash on Jer 10:2 the Bavli adds a short clarification – this verse indicates that luminaries control the fate of the gentiles but not of Israel.

4. Having replaced the order of tsuk 2:5 and tsuk 2:6 the Bavli adds to the eight ethical sins of the Tosefta two further lists of four which bring about eclipses. The first list precedes the text from the Tosefta and appears in the guise of a baraita, and the second list, which follows the Tosefta sins, is presented in the name of the amora Rav. Yet the two seemingly independent texts can be tied one to the other in a sort of inclusion. The first outrage described in the pseudo-baraita is the failure to mourn a head of a court-of-law who died, and the last is impertinence, which is described by Rav as overriding all other outrages. Obviously the failure to mourn the head-of-court can be viewed as the worst sort of impertinence. It is the duty of the head-of-court to enforce the law and by not mourning him the people indicate their impertinence and denigration of the law.


[1] See mTaan 1:1.

@Feminist observations

Only in the Bavli, under one of the lists of additional ethical sins, is the case of the betrothed maiden mentioned. This betrothed maiden is described as having cried out for help in the city but no one came to her assistance. This obviously refers to the law on rape found in Deut 22:23-27:

כִּי יִהְיֶה נַעֲרָ בְתוּלָה מְאֹרָשָׂה לְאִישׁ וּמְצָאָהּ אִישׁ בָּעִיר וְשָׁכַב עִמָּהּ: וְהוֹצֵאתֶם אֶת שְׁנֵיהֶם אֶל שַׁעַר הָעִיר הַהִוא וּסְקַלְתֶּם אֹתָם בָּאֲבָנִים וָמֵתוּ אֶת הַנַּעֲרָ עַל דְּבַר אֲשֶׁר לֹא צָעֲקָה בָעִיר וְאֶת הָאִישׁ עַל דְּבַר אֲשֶׁר עִנָּה אֶת אֵשֶׁת רֵעֵהוּ וּבִעַרְתָּ הָרָע מִקִּרְבֶּךָ: וְאִם בַּשָּׂדֶה יִמְצָא הָאִישׁ אֶת הַנַּעֲרָ הַמְאֹרָשָׂה וְהֶחֱזִיק בָּהּ הָאִישׁ וְשָׁכַב עִמָּהּ וּמֵת הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר שָׁכַב עִמָּהּ לְבַדּוֹ: וְלַנַּעֲרָ לֹא תַעֲשֶׂה דָבָר אֵין לַנַּעֲרָ חֵטְא מָוֶת כִּי כַּאֲשֶׁר יָקוּם אִישׁ עַל רֵעֵהוּ וּרְצָחוֹ נֶפֶשׁ כֵּן הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה: כִּי בַשָּׂדֶה מְצָאָהּ צָעֲקָה הַנַּעֲרָ הַמְאֹרָשָׂה וְאֵין מוֹשִׁיעַ לָהּ:

In the case of a betrothed maiden,[1] if a man comes upon her in town and lies with her, you shall take the two of them out to the gate of that town and stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry for help in the town, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. Thus you shall sweep away evil from your midst. But if the man comes upon the betrothed maiden in the open country, and the man lies with her by force, only the man who lay with her shall die, but you shall do nothing to the girl. The maiden did not incur the death penalty, for this case is like that of one person attacking and murdering another. He came upon her in the open; though the betrothed maiden cried for help, there was no one to save her.


[1] My translation, here and throughout, to fit the discussion. JPS has “a virgin who is engaged to a man.”

According to this text, if a girl claims to have been raped in the city she is not believed, because had that been the case, she could have cried out and someone would have come to her assistance. The assumption is that good people will be found in a city who will deliver the girl from the hands of her oppressor. The authors of the Bavli here are outraged that this is not the case, and see this as one reason why God brings about an eclipse of the sun.

The outrages outlined by the Tosefta here are more or less in dialogue with Deuteronomy 19-25, a catalogue of social laws which begins by stating that when God will bring Israel to their promised land, there are several outrages that they are not to commit, so as not to anger Him (Deut 19:1). At the end of this biblical section God sums up by stating that such actions constitute an abomination, similar to the crimes committed against Israel by its archenemy, Amalek (Deut 25:16-19). Four of the eight actions described in the Tosefta are a violation of injunctions found in this biblical section. Perjury is forbidden in Deut 19:18; the destruction of trees is forbidden in Deut 20:19; the withholding of paid bonds can be compared to the withholding of a deposit (Deut 24:10-11); and the withholding of charity can be derived from the injunctions about leaving part of the harvest for the poor (Deut 24:19-21). Similarly, some of the eight additional outrages listed by the Bavli, can be understood as violations of injunctions found in this biblical text: The withholding and manipulation of wages is forbidden in Deut 24:14-15 and the as we saw above, the outrage derived from the failure to come to the assistance of a betrothed maiden being raped, who cried out in the city can be deduced from Deut 22:23-27.

I wish to argue here that the third additional injunction in the Bavli’s pseudobaraita too may be seen as alluding to Deut 19-25, but may also be viewed as specifically relevant for a gender interpretation. Yet there is a difference between the outrages derived from Deuteronomic law listed in the Tosefta and in Rav’s comment, and the two sexual outrages found in the pseudo-baraita. These last mentioned are both not direct violations of the Deuteronomic vision. In the case of the betrothed maiden who cried in the city and was not answered, nowhere does Deuteronomy instruct one to save such a maiden. The text assumes this but does not lay it down as law.

The outrage associated with sodomy, which follows on the lament concerning the betrothed maiden, may be derived from the law outlined in Deut 23:18.

לֹא תִהְיֶה קְדֵשָׁה מִבְּנוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל וְלֹא יִהְיֶה קָדֵשׁ מִבְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל:

No Israelite woman shall be a prostitute, nor shall any Israelite man be a prostitute.

This law obviously views male (as well as female) prostitution as an outrage, and male prostitution entails sodomy. However, the sodomy mentioned here in the Bavli, is not exactly synonymous with male prostitution mentioned in Deut 23:18. The male prostitute in Deuteronomy is coupled with the female one, and this injunction is therefore a general prohibition of prostitution. The Deuteronomic code does not include a ban on homosexuality.

This of course does not mean that such a ban is not found in the Torah. Lev 18:22 expressly forbids lying with a man in the same way one lies with a woman וְאֶת זָכָר לֹא תִשְׁכַּב מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה תּוֹעֵבָה הִוא but this law is here associated with the prohibition of bestiality for both men and women בְכָל בְּהֵמָה לֹא תִתֵּן שְׁכָבְתְּךָ לְטָמְאָה בָהּ וְאִשָּׁה לֹא תַעֲמֹד לִפְנֵי בְהֵמָה לְרִבְעָהּ תֶּבֶל הוּא, obviously viewing the two as similar forbidden sexual acts.

Rabbinic literature, beginning with Sifra vayiqra, dibura de-hova parashah 1:8, reiterates the prohibition against sodomy, and yBer 9:2, 13c condemns the practice, listing it among the sins which brought about the destruction of the Temple. Also, in bSan 82a sodomy is the sin associated with the words: “An abomination in Israel and Jerusalem” (Mal 2:11). In all these cases the condemnation of sodomy is directly associated with Lev 18:22. In this last case, in close proximity, Deut 23:18, is used to condemn prostitution rather than sodomy. I thus conclude that the outrage of the Bavli on account of both the betrothed maiden who cried in the city and was not rescued and sodomy may be seen as hinted at in Deut 19-25, but not specifically legislated.

In light of this conclusion, the verse which condemns the spilling of blood of two brothers both at the same time may be alluding to another piece of gender legislation found in this Deuteronomic code. In Deut 25:5-6 we read the law of the levirate:

כִּי יֵשְׁבוּ אַחִים יַחְדָּו וּמֵת אַחַד מֵהֶם וּבֵן אֵין לוֹ לֹא תִהְיֶה אֵשֶׁת הַמֵּת הַחוּצָה לְאִישׁ זָר יְבָמָהּ יָבֹא עָלֶיהָ וּלְקָחָהּ לוֹ לְאִשָּׁה וְיִבְּמָהּ: (ו) וְהָיָה הַבְּכוֹר אֲשֶׁר תֵּלֵד יָקוּם עַל שֵׁם אָחִיו הַמֵּת וְלֹא יִמָּחֶה שְׁמוֹ מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל:

When brothers dwell together and one of them dies and leaves no offspring, the wife of the deceased shall not become another householder’s [wife] outside the family. Her husband’s brother shall unite with her: He shall take her as wife and perform the levir’s duty. The first child that she bears shall be accounted to the dead brother, that his name may not be blotted out in Israel.

According to this law, it is of course a great tragedy when one brother dies childless, because he does not leave after him offspring, but there is hope, since his widow is now allowed to marry his brother and produce an heir for the dead man. Yet if he and his brother die together, there is no hope at all. It may well be therefore that this outrage is also formulated in dialogue with the social laws of Deuteronomy.

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