Deborah Lipstadt, Sefaria Torah Talks
And it happened that I remember sitting in shul (synagogue) in London listening to the Megillah (Esther) and hearing this verse during my trial [when I was being sued for libel]: "Mi yodeah im le-eit kazot higat le-malchut. "Who knows if not for this reason you became queen?"...You never know when what you're learning, what you're doing, what you're standing up for, what's being implanted in you by your parents' teaching...you never know when you're going to call upon that. I feel on some level that I was lucky. I was lucky to have the teaching that I have, to have grown up in the home that I grew up in, with this strong commitment, to our tradition, to our identity, to justice, to standing up for things. I didn't know I was going to be called upon to use it.
This one-on-one Torah study with Professor Deborah Lipstadt is a part of our Torah Talks project. In this session, she shares her favorite texts on Abraham, Esther, justice, and responsibility, as well as personal moments of feeling like her Torah study prepared her to fight on behalf of Holocaust victims.
This sheet includes memorable quotes from our study session with Deborah Lipstadt. We encourage you to add these quotes to your own Sefaria sheets by clicking them and selecting “Add to Sheet” in the resource panel (instructions here)!
Professor Lipstadt is the author of Denying the Holocaust (1993), History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier (2005), The Eichmann Trial (2011), and Antisemitism: Here and Now (2019). She is also is the Dorot Professor of Modern Jewish History and Holocaust Studies at Emory University. The 2016 film "Denial" (directed by Mick Jackson and written by David Hare) was based on Deborah Lipstadt's "History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier." It dramatizes the court case in which Lipstadt was sued by Holocaust denier David Irving for libel.
וַיָּקֻ֤מוּ מִשָּׁם֙ הָֽאֲנָשִׁ֔ים וַיַּשְׁקִ֖פוּ עַל־פְּנֵ֣י סְדֹ֑ם וְאַ֨בְרָהָ֔ם הֹלֵ֥ךְ עִמָּ֖ם לְשַׁלְּחָֽם׃ וַֽיהֹוָ֖ה אָמָ֑ר הַֽמְכַסֶּ֤ה אֲנִי֙ מֵֽאַבְרָהָ֔ם אֲשֶׁ֖ר אֲנִ֥י עֹשֶֽׂה׃ וְאַ֨בְרָהָ֔ם הָי֧וֹ יִֽהְיֶ֛ה לְג֥וֹי גָּד֖וֹל וְעָצ֑וּם וְנִ֨בְרְכוּ ב֔וֹ כֹּ֖ל גּוֹיֵ֥י הָאָֽרֶץ׃ כִּ֣י יְדַעְתִּ֗יו לְמַעַן֩ אֲשֶׁ֨ר יְצַוֶּ֜ה אֶת־בָּנָ֤יו וְאֶת־בֵּיתוֹ֙ אַחֲרָ֔יו וְשָֽׁמְרוּ֙ דֶּ֣רֶךְ יְהוָ֔ה לַעֲשׂ֥וֹת צְדָקָ֖ה וּמִשְׁפָּ֑ט לְמַ֗עַן הָבִ֤יא יְהוָה֙ עַל־אַבְרָהָ֔ם אֵ֥ת אֲשֶׁר־דִּבֶּ֖ר עָלָֽיו׃ וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהוָ֔ה זַעֲקַ֛ת סְדֹ֥ם וַעֲמֹרָ֖ה כִּי־רָ֑בָּה וְחַ֨טָּאתָ֔ם כִּ֥י כָבְדָ֖ה מְאֹֽד׃ אֵֽרֲדָה־נָּ֣א וְאֶרְאֶ֔ה הַכְּצַעֲקָתָ֛הּ הַבָּ֥אָה אֵלַ֖י עָשׂ֣וּ ׀ כָּלָ֑ה וְאִם־לֹ֖א אֵדָֽעָה׃ וַיִּפְנ֤וּ מִשָּׁם֙ הָֽאֲנָשִׁ֔ים וַיֵּלְכ֖וּ סְדֹ֑מָה וְאַ֨בְרָהָ֔ם עוֹדֶ֥נּוּ עֹמֵ֖ד לִפְנֵ֥י יְהוָֽה׃ וַיִּגַּ֥שׁ אַבְרָהָ֖ם וַיֹּאמַ֑ר הַאַ֣ף תִּסְפֶּ֔ה צַדִּ֖יק עִם־רָשָֽׁע׃ אוּלַ֥י יֵ֛שׁ חֲמִשִּׁ֥ים צַדִּיקִ֖ם בְּת֣וֹךְ הָעִ֑יר הַאַ֤ף תִּסְפֶּה֙ וְלֹא־תִשָּׂ֣א לַמָּק֔וֹם לְמַ֛עַן חֲמִשִּׁ֥ים הַצַּדִּיקִ֖ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר בְּקִרְבָּֽהּ׃ חָלִ֨לָה לְּךָ֜ מֵעֲשֹׂ֣ת ׀ כַּדָּבָ֣ר הַזֶּ֗ה לְהָמִ֤ית צַדִּיק֙ עִם־רָשָׁ֔ע וְהָיָ֥ה כַצַּדִּ֖יק כָּרָשָׁ֑ע חָלִ֣לָה לָּ֔ךְ הֲשֹׁפֵט֙ כָּל־הָאָ֔רֶץ לֹ֥א יַעֲשֶׂ֖ה מִשְׁפָּֽט׃ וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהוָ֔ה אִם־אֶמְצָ֥א בִסְדֹ֛ם חֲמִשִּׁ֥ים צַדִּיקִ֖ם בְּת֣וֹךְ הָעִ֑יר וְנָשָׂ֥אתִי לְכָל־הַמָּק֖וֹם בַּעֲבוּרָֽם׃ וַיַּ֥עַן אַבְרָהָ֖ם וַיֹּאמַ֑ר הִנֵּה־נָ֤א הוֹאַ֙לְתִּי֙ לְדַבֵּ֣ר אֶל־אֲדֹנָ֔י וְאָנֹכִ֖י עָפָ֥ר וָאֵֽפֶר׃ א֠וּלַי יַחְסְר֞וּן חֲמִשִּׁ֤ים הַצַּדִּיקִם֙ חֲמִשָּׁ֔ה הֲתַשְׁחִ֥ית בַּחֲמִשָּׁ֖ה אֶת־כָּל־הָעִ֑יר וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אַשְׁחִ֔ית אִם־אֶמְצָ֣א שָׁ֔ם אַרְבָּעִ֖ים וַחֲמִשָּֽׁה׃ וַיֹּ֨סֶף ע֜וֹד לְדַבֵּ֤ר אֵלָיו֙ וַיֹּאמַ֔ר אוּלַ֛י יִמָּצְא֥וּן שָׁ֖ם אַרְבָּעִ֑ים וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אֶֽעֱשֶׂ֔ה בַּעֲב֖וּר הָאַרְבָּעִֽים׃ וַ֠יֹּאמֶר אַל־נָ֞א יִ֤חַר לַֽאדֹנָי֙ וַאֲדַבֵּ֔רָה אוּלַ֛י יִמָּצְא֥וּן שָׁ֖ם שְׁלֹשִׁ֑ים וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אֶֽעֱשֶׂ֔ה אִם־אֶמְצָ֥א שָׁ֖ם שְׁלֹשִֽׁים׃ וַיֹּ֗אמֶר הִנֵּֽה־נָ֤א הוֹאַ֙לְתִּי֙ לְדַבֵּ֣ר אֶל־אֲדֹנָ֔י אוּלַ֛י יִמָּצְא֥וּן שָׁ֖ם עֶשְׂרִ֑ים וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אַשְׁחִ֔ית בַּעֲב֖וּר הָֽעֶשְׂרִֽים׃ וַ֠יֹּאמֶר אַל־נָ֞א יִ֤חַר לַֽאדֹנָי֙ וַאֲדַבְּרָ֣ה אַךְ־הַפַּ֔עַם אוּלַ֛י יִמָּצְא֥וּן שָׁ֖ם עֲשָׂרָ֑ה וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אַשְׁחִ֔ית בַּעֲב֖וּר הָעֲשָׂרָֽה׃ וַיֵּ֣לֶךְ יְהוָ֔ה כַּאֲשֶׁ֣ר כִּלָּ֔ה לְדַבֵּ֖ר אֶל־אַבְרָהָ֑ם וְאַבְרָהָ֖ם שָׁ֥ב לִמְקֹמֽוֹ׃
The men set out from there and looked down toward Sodom, Abraham walking with them to see them off. Now the LORD had said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, since Abraham is to become a great and populous nation and all the nations of the earth are to bless themselves by him? For I have singled him out, that he may instruct his children and his posterity to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is just and right, in order that the LORD may bring about for Abraham what He has promised him.” Then the LORD said, “The outrage of Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave! I will go down to see whether they have acted altogether according to the outcry that has reached Me; if not, I will take note.” The men went on from there to Sodom, while Abraham remained standing before the LORD. Abraham came forward and said, “Will You sweep away the innocent along with the guilty? What if there should be fifty innocent within the city; will You then wipe out the place and not forgive it for the sake of the innocent fifty who are in it? Far be it from You to do such a thing, to bring death upon the innocent as well as the guilty, so that innocent and guilty fare alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” And the LORD answered, “If I find within the city of Sodom fifty innocent ones, I will forgive the whole place for their sake.” Abraham spoke up, saying, “Here I venture to speak to my Lord, I who am but dust and ashes: What if the fifty innocent should lack five? Will You destroy the whole city for want of the five?” And He answered, “I will not destroy if I find forty-five there.” But he spoke to Him again, and said, “What if forty should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not do it, for the sake of the forty.” And he said, “Let not my Lord be angry if I go on: What if thirty should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” And he said, “I venture again to speak to my Lord: What if twenty should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not destroy, for the sake of the twenty.” And he said, “Let not my Lord be angry if I speak but this last time: What if ten should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not destroy, for the sake of the ten.” When the LORD had finished speaking to Abraham, He departed; and Abraham returned to his place.
(יג) וַיֹּ֥אמֶר מָרְדֳּכַ֖י לְהָשִׁ֣יב אֶל־אֶסְתֵּ֑ר אַל־תְּדַמִּ֣י בְנַפְשֵׁ֔ךְ לְהִמָּלֵ֥ט בֵּית־הַמֶּ֖לֶךְ מִכָּל־הַיְּהוּדִֽים׃ (יד) כִּ֣י אִם־הַחֲרֵ֣שׁ תַּחֲרִישִׁי֮ בָּעֵ֣ת הַזֹּאת֒ רֶ֣וַח וְהַצָּלָ֞ה יַעֲמ֤וֹד לַיְּהוּדִים֙ מִמָּק֣וֹם אַחֵ֔ר וְאַ֥תְּ וּבֵית־אָבִ֖יךְ תֹּאבֵ֑דוּ וּמִ֣י יוֹדֵ֔עַ אִם־לְעֵ֣ת כָּזֹ֔את הִגַּ֖עַתְּ לַמַּלְכֽוּת׃ (טו) וַתֹּ֥אמֶר אֶסְתֵּ֖ר לְהָשִׁ֥יב אֶֽל־מָרְדֳּכָֽי׃ (טז) לֵךְ֩ כְּנ֨וֹס אֶת־כָּל־הַיְּהוּדִ֜ים הַֽנִּמְצְאִ֣ים בְּשׁוּשָׁ֗ן וְצ֣וּמוּ עָ֠לַי וְאַל־תֹּאכְל֨וּ וְאַל־תִּשְׁתּ֜וּ שְׁלֹ֤שֶׁת יָמִים֙ לַ֣יְלָה וָי֔וֹם גַּם־אֲנִ֥י וְנַעֲרֹתַ֖י אָצ֣וּם כֵּ֑ן וּבְכֵ֞ן אָב֤וֹא אֶל־הַמֶּ֙לֶךְ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר לֹֽא־כַדָּ֔ת וְכַאֲשֶׁ֥ר אָבַ֖דְתִּי אָבָֽדְתִּי׃ (יז) וַֽיַּעֲבֹ֖ר מָרְדֳּכָ֑י וַיַּ֕עַשׂ כְּכֹ֛ל אֲשֶׁר־צִוְּתָ֥ה עָלָ֖יו אֶסְתֵּֽר׃ (ס)
(13) Mordecai had this message delivered to Esther: “Do not imagine that you, of all the Jews, will escape with your life by being in the king’s palace. (14) On the contrary, if you keep silent in this crisis, relief and deliverance will come to the Jews from another quarter, while you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows, perhaps you have attained to royal position for just such a crisis.” (15) Then Esther sent back this answer to Mordecai: (16) “Go, assemble all the Jews who live in Shushan, and fast in my behalf; do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maidens will observe the same fast. Then I shall go to the king, though it is contrary to the law; and if I am to perish, I shall perish!” (17) So Mordecai went about [the city] and did just as Esther had commanded him.
א״ל הקב״ה משה בן מי אתה? א״ל בן עמרם, א״ל ועמרם בן מי הוא? א״ל בן יצהר, יצהר בן מי הוא? א״ל בן קהת, וקהת בן מי הוא? א״ל בן לוי, א״ל וכולם ממי יצאו? א״ל מן אדה"ר, א״ל נשאר מהם שום אדם חי? א״ל כולם מתו, א״ל הקב״ה ואתה רוצה לחיות?! א״ל רבש״ע אדה"ר גנב ואכל מה שלא רצית וקנסת עליו מיתה ואני גנבתי כלום לפניך? וכבר כתבת עלי עבדי משה בכל ביתי נאמן הוא, א״ל הקב״ה למשה כלום אתה צדיק מאדה"ר ודורו? א״ל כן, אדה"ר וחוה פיתה אותם נחש ואני החייתי מתים בנחש, א״ל הקב״ה כלום אתה גדול מנח ודורו? א״ל כן, נח הבאת עליו ועל דורו מי המבול ונח לא בקש רחמים על דורו ואני אמרתי ועתה אם תשא חטאתם ואם אין מחני נא מספרך אשר כתבת. א״ל כלום אתה גדול מאברהם שנסיתי אותו בעשרה נסיונות? א״ל יצא ממנו ישמעאל שיאבדו בניו את בניך וכו׳. א״ל האתה גדול מיצחק? א״ל יצא מחלציו מי שיחריב את ביתך ובניו יהרגו את בניך כהניך ולויך, א״ל הקב״ה כלום אמרתי לך שתהרוג את המצרי? א״ל ואתה הרגת כל בכורי מצרים ואני אמות בשביל מצרי אחד?! א״ל הקב״ה ואתה דומה אלי ממית ומחיה?
The Blessed Holy One said to Moses: “Moses, whose son are you?” He replied: “Son of Amram.” “And Amram is the son of whom?” He replied: “Son of Kehat.” Said the Blessed Holy One: “Are any of them still alive?” He replied: “All have died.” Said to him the Blessed Holy One: “And you want to live!?” He replied, “Master of the Universe, the first person stole and ate against your will, and you sentenced him to death, but I – did I ever steal anything from you?! You wrote about me “My servant Moshe, most trustworthy in my house” – how, then, can I die?” Said God: “Are you greater than Avraham, whom I tested with ten trials?” He replied: “Avraham fathered Yishmael, whose descendents enslaved your children.” Said God: “Are you greater than Yitzhak?” He replied: “Yitzhak fathered one who will destroy your house, and his sons will kill your sons.” Said to him the Blessed Holy One: “Did I order you to kill the Egyptian?!” Replied Moses: “You killed all the firstborn of Egypt, yet I am to die because of a single Egyptian?!” Said to him the Blessed Holy One: “Are you comparable to me, killing and giving life? Can you give life as I do?”
(From Midrash Petirat Moshe, quoted in New Studies in the Book of Shemot by Nechama Leibowitz, and from Sefer Ha’aggadah/The Book of Legends, ed. Chayim Nachman Bialik(
Deborah Lipstadt, Sefaria Torah Talks
Elie Wiesel, of blessed memory, used to always talk about arguing with God, and we have so many -- Job argues with God, etc. But this [with Abraham] was the original argument with God. He didn't go quietly. He argued. Now, of course, you juxtapose that with Avraham during the Akeidah, the binding of Isaac, where he doesn't argue -- I'm not going to get into that because I haven't quite figured that one out, though I have studied it many times --but I like this because it shows chutzpah (audacity). We come by our chutzpah, our dissidence, our standing up for principles from Avraham, from the first Jew.
Deborah Lipstadt, Sefaria Torah Talks
What the child has done is what we like to say, "hoisted the parents on their own petard," which is a way of saying, [she] held the parents up to their own level. So I see [in] this interchange between Avraham and HaKadosh Baruch Hu, God at this point must have said, "Hey, I chose the right guy. He really internalized what I have taught."
Deborah Lipstadt, Sefaria Torah Talks
Bat Pharoah (Pharaoh's daughter) takes Moshe in. Batya as she's called. I always say she's a model of the first Tzadikei Umot Ha-Olam, Righteous Gentiles, by saving Moshe.
Deborah Lipstadt, Sefaria Torah Talks
As my friend Barry Holtz, who teaches midrash at the Jewish Theological Seminary, once described it beautifully, I see midrashim as something that the tradition created to either fill in a pothole in the text, or smooth out the bump in the text. I love that image. Isn't that beautiful?
Deborah Lipstadt, Sefaria Torah Talks
In the Midrash, [Moshe] was being punished for zealotry in killing an [Egyptian] man who might not have needed to be killed. It shows me the ethical struggles of our tradition.
Deborah Lipstadt, Sefaria Torah Talks
I feel very lucky. In terms of my trial...being sued for libel, it was a long legal battle. But I feel very lucky because I got to do "chesed shel emet"...The one act of loving-kindness, which can't be reciprocated is when we take care of the dead. That's why it's called "chesed," righteousness, "shel emet," true righteousness. When we say "emet," we're usually referring to God. We started with God, and we'll end with God. So I had the chance to stand up for the dead.