(25) Far be it from You to do such a thing, to bring death upon the innocent as well as the guilty, so that innocent and guilty fare alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?”
On what basis does Avraham argue with G-d? Why does he feel he is allowed to? How does Avraham get what he wants from G-d?
(ח) עַל כָּל צָרָה שֶׁלֹּא תָבֹא עַל הַצִּבּוּר, מַתְרִיעִין עֲלֵיהֶן, חוּץ מֵרוֹב גְּשָׁמִים. מַעֲשֶׂה שֶׁאָמְרוּ לוֹ לְחוֹנִי הַמְעַגֵּל, הִתְפַּלֵּל שֶׁיֵּרְדוּ גְשָׁמִים. אָמַר לָהֶם, צְאוּ וְהַכְנִיסוּ תַנּוּרֵי פְסָחִים, בִּשְׁבִיל שֶׁלֹּא יִמּוֹקוּ. הִתְפַּלֵּל, וְלֹא יָרְדוּ גְשָׁמִים. מֶה עָשָׂה, עָג עוּגָה וְעָמַד בְּתוֹכָהּ, וְאָמַר לְפָנָיו, רִבּוֹנוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם, בָּנֶיךָ שָׂמוּ פְנֵיהֶם עָלַי, שֶׁאֲנִי כְבֶן בַּיִת לְפָנֶיךָ. נִשְׁבָּע אֲנִי בְשִׁמְךָ הַגָּדוֹל שֶׁאֵינִי זָז מִכָּאן, עַד שֶׁתְּרַחֵם עַל בָּנֶיךָ. הִתְחִילוּ גְּשָׁמִים מְנַטְּפִין. אָמַר, לֹא כָךְ שָׁאַלְתִּי, אֶלָּא גִּשְׁמֵי בוֹרוֹת שִׁיחִין וּמְעָרוֹת. הִתְחִילוּ לֵירֵד בְּזָעַף. אָמַר, לֹא כָךְ שָׁאַלְתִּי, אֶלָּא גִּשְׁמֵי רָצוֹן, בְּרָכָה וּנְדָבָה. יָרְדוּ כְתִקְנָן, עַד שֶׁיָּצְאוּ יִשְׂרָאֵל מִירוּשָׁלַיִם לְהַר הַבַּיִת מִפְּנֵי הַגְּשָׁמִים. בָּאוּ וְאָמְרוּ לוֹ, כְּשֵׁם שֶׁהִתְפַּלַלְתָּ עֲלֵיהֶם שֶׁיֵּרְדוּ כָּךְ הִתְפַּלֵּל שֶׁיֵּלְכוּ לָהֶן. אָמַר לָהֶן, צְאוּ וּרְאוּ אִם נִמְחֵת אֶבֶן הַטּוֹעִים. שָׁלַח לוֹ שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן שָׁטָח, אִלְמָלֵא חוֹנִי אַתָּה, גּוֹזְרַנִי עָלֶיךָ נִדּוּי. אֲבָל מָה אֶעֱשֶׂה לְּךָ, שֶׁאַתָּה מִתְחַטֵּא לִפְנֵי הַמָּקוֹם וְעוֹשֶׂה לְךָ רְצוֹנְךָ כְּבֵן שֶׁהוּא מִתְחַטֵּא עַל אָבִיו וְעוֹשֶׂה לוֹ רְצוֹנוֹ. וְעָלֶיךָ הַכָּתוּב אוֹמֵר (משלי כג), יִשְׂמַח אָבִיךָ וְאִמֶּךָ וְתָגֵל יוֹלַדְתֶּךָ:
(8) For every plague—which may the community never be visited with! —an alarm is to be sounded, except for a superabundance of rain. It happened once, that they said to Honi, (The Circle-maker) המעגל, "Pray for us, that rain may fall." He told them, "Go and bring in the Passover ovens, that they may not be spoiled by the rain." He prayed, and the rain did not descend. What did he then? He marked out a circle, and placing himself within it, thus prayed, "Creator of the world! Your children have looked up to me as being peculiarly favoured by You; I swear, by Your Great Name, that I will not move from this place until You have compassion on your children." The rain began to drop down [gently]. He said, "It was not for this that I petitioned, but for rain [sufficient to fill] wells, cisterns, and caves." The rain then fell in violent torrents; when he said, "Not for such rains did I petition, but for mild, felicitous, and liberal showers." The rain then fell in the usual manner, until the Israelites of Jerusalem were obliged to go from the city to the Temple mountain, on account of the rain. They came and said to him, "Even as You did pray that the rains might come down, pray now that they may cease." He said to them, "Go and see whether the stone טועים is covered by the waters." Simeon, son of Shatach sent him word, "If you were not Honi, I would order thee to be excommunicated; but what shall I do to thee? Since you sin against God, and yet He forgives and indulges you like a favoured child, who sins against his father, and is yet forgiven and indulged. To you may be applied the text, 'Thy father and mother shall rejoice, and they who begot thee shall be glad.' (Prov. 23:25)"
What qualifies Honi specifically to make this request of G-d? How does he accomplish his goal? (i.e. logic, specific ritual, etc...) How does his mode compare to Avraham's?
ת"ר פעם אחת עלו כל ישראל לרגל לירושלים ולא היה להם מים לשתות הלך נקדימון בן גוריון אצל אדון אחד אמר לו הלויני שתים עשרה מעיינות מים לעולי רגלים ואני אתן לך שתים עשרה עינות מים ואם איני נותן לך הריני נותן לך שתים עשרה ככר כסף וקבע לו זמן כיון שהגיע הזמן ולא ירדו גשמים בשחרית שלח לו שגר לי או מים או מעות שיש לי בידך שלח לו עדיין יש לי זמן כל היום כולו שלי הוא בצהרים שלח לו שגר לי או מים או מעות שיש לי בידך שלח לו עדיין יש לי שהות ביום במנחה שלח לו שגר לי או מים או מעות שיש לי בידך שלח לו עדיין יש לי שהות ביום לגלג עליו אותו אדון אמר כל השנה כולה לא ירדו גשמים
§ The Sages taught: Once all the Jewish people ascended for the pilgrimage Festival to Jerusalem and there was not enough water for them to drink. Nakdimon ben Guryon, one of the wealthy citizens of Jerusalem, went to a certain gentile officer [hegemon] and said to him: Lend me twelve wells of water for the pilgrims, and I will give back to you twelve wells of water. And if I do not give them to you, I will give you twelve talents of silver. And the officer set him a time limit for returning the water. When the set time arrived and no rain had fallen, in the morning the official sent a message to Nakdimon: Send me either the water or the coins that you owe me. Nakdimon sent a message to him: I still have time, as the entire day is mine. At noontime the official again sent a message to him: Send me either the water or the coins that you owe me. Nakdimon sent a message to him: I still have time left in the day. In the afternoon he sent a message to him: Send me either the water or the coins that you owe me. Nakdimon sent a message to him: I still have time left in the day. That officer ridiculed him, saying: Throughout the entire year rain has not fallen,
ועכשיו ירדו גשמים נכנס לבית המרחץ בשמחה עד שהאדון נכנס בשמחתו לבית המרחץ נקדימון נכנס לבית המקדש כשהוא עצב נתעטף ועמד בתפלה אמר לפניו רבונו של עולם גלוי וידוע לפניך שלא לכבודי עשיתי ולא לכבוד בית אבא עשיתי אלא לכבודך עשיתי שיהו מים מצויין לעולי רגלים מיד נתקשרו שמים בעבים וירדו גשמים עד שנתמלאו שתים עשרה מעינות מים והותירו עד שיצא אדון מבית המרחץ נקדימון בן גוריון יצא מבית המקדש כשפגעו זה בזה אמר לו תן לי דמי מים יותר שיש לי בידך אמר לו יודע אני שלא הרעיש הקב"ה את עולמו אלא בשבילך אלא עדיין יש לי פתחון פה עליך שאוציא ממך את מעותיי שכבר שקעה חמה וגשמים ברשותי ירדו חזר ונכנס לבית המקדש נתעטף ועמד בתפלה ואמר לפניו רבונו של עולם הודע שיש לך אהובים בעולמך מיד נתפזרו העבים וזרחה החמה באותה שעה אמר לו האדון אילו לא נקדרה החמה היה לי פתחון פה עליך שאוציא ממך מעותיי תנא לא נקדימון שמו אלא בוני שמו ולמה נקרא שמו נקדימון שנקדרה חמה בעבורו
and now it will rain? He entered the bathhouse in a state of joy, anticipating the large sum of money he was about to receive. As the master entered the bathhouse in his joy, Nakdimon entered the Temple in a state of sadness. He wrapped himself in his prayer shawl and stood in prayer. He said before God: Master of the Universe, it is revealed and known before You that I did not act for my own honor, nor did I act for the honor of my father’s house. Rather, I acted for Your honor, so that there should be water for the Festival pilgrims. Immediately the sky became overcast and rain fell until the twelve cisterns were filled with water, and there was even more water, so that they overflowed. As the master left the bathhouse, Nakdimon ben Guryon left the Temple. When they met one another, Nakdimon said to him: Give me the money you owe me for the extra water you received. The official said to him: I know that the Holy One, Blessed be He, has shaken His world and caused rain to fall only for you. However, I still maintain a claim against you, by which I can legally take my coins from you, as you did not pay me on the agreed date, for the sun had already set, and therefore the rain fell onto my property. Nakdimon went back and entered the Temple, wrapped himself in his prayer shawl, and stood in prayer. He said before God: Master of the Universe, let it be known that You have beloved ones in Your world. Immediately, the clouds scattered and the sun shined. At that time, the master said to him: If the sun had not broken through the clouds, I would have had a claim against you, by which I could have taken my coins from you. A Sage taught: Nakdimon was not his real name; rather his name was Buni. And why was he called Nakdimon? Because the sun broke through [nikdera] for him.
What qualifies Nakdimon to make this request of G-d? How does he accomplish his goal? How does his mode compare to the other's we have seen? Is this method sustainable, meaning can it be repeated by others or practiced by a community? Why do you think his prayer works?
"Master of the Universe! Today, all Your creatures pass before You like a flock of sheep, and You pass judgment upon them. Two great books lie open before You, the book of life and the book of death. The righteous are inscribed in the book of life, and the transgressors are written in the book of death, G-d forbid.
"But today is Shabbat. Did You not command in Your holy Torah that is forbidden to write on Shabbat? True, it is permitted to violate Shabbat in order to preserve a life, so You are permitted to inscribe the righteous in the book of life. But no such clause permits inscribing those who have transgressed Your will in the book of death. I therefore inform You, dear Father in Heaven, that according to the law of the Torah, You must inscribe all Your children for a year of life, health and prosperity!
What qualifies Rav Levi Yitzchak to speak to G-d like this? How does he accomplish his goal? How does his mode compare to the other's we have seen? Is this method sustainable? What is the point of such a "prayer"?
What does this midrash say about G-d's relationship to our prayers and requests? Does it change your perspective on any of the earlier modes of speaking to G-d? Which mode seems to be most sustainable? What does this say about how can or should speak and pray?
Rabbi Yochanan said "Come and see the difference between two righteous ones!"...Noah did not defend his generation, nor did he pray for them, as Abraham did. When the Holy One, blessed be He, said to Abraham [that he was about to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah] ... immediately Abraham began to pray before the Holy One, blessed be He, until he asked whether, if ten good people could be found, would God forgive the entire place because of them ... Later, Moses came, prayed for, and defended his generation. When the Holy One, Blessed be he, said to him, "They have strayed quickly from the way [in which I commanded them]," immediately, Moses stood and prayed.