Ketubot 16b:12כתובות ט״ז ב:יב
The William Davidson Talmudתלמוד מהדורת ויליאם דוידסון
Save "Ketubot 16b:12"
Toggle Reader Menu Display Settings
16bט״ז ב

וזו הואיל ואין לה קול איתרע לה רובא

and with regard to this woman, because her marriage did not generate publicity, the effect of the majority is undermined.

אי כל הנשאת בתולה יש לה קול כי אתו עדים מאי הוי הנך סהדי שקרי נינהו אלא אמר רבינא רוב הנשאת בתולה יש לה קול וזו הואיל ואין לה קול איתרע לה רובא:

The Gemara asks: If in fact, the marriage of anyone who is married as a virgin generates publicity, and the marriage of this woman did not generate publicity, when witnesses come, what of it? These are false witnesses, as their testimony runs counter to the presumption governing all marriages. Rather, Ravina said that it is not a universal presumption, but a majority. The marriage of most women who are married as virgins generates publicity, but for this woman, since her marriage did not generate publicity, the effect of the majority is undermined. Therefore, the testimony that she went out of her father’s house to her wedding with a hinnuma overrides the lack of publicity.

אם יש עדים שיצתה בהינומא וכו': וליחוש דלמא מפקא עדים בהאי בי דינא וגביא והדר מפקא לה לכתובה בהאי ב"ד וגביא בה א"ר אבהו זאת אומרת כותבין שובר רב פפא אמר במקום שאין כותבין כתובה עסקינן

§ It was stated in the mishna: If there are witnesses that she went out of her father’s house to her wedding with a hinnuma, or with her hair uncovered, in a manner typical of virgins, payment of her marriage contract is two hundred dinars. The Gemara asks: And since she collects payment without producing her marriage contract, let us be concerned that she might produce witnesses in this court and collect payment, and then produce her marriage contract in that other court and collect with it payment a second time. Rabbi Abbahu said: This indicates that one writes a receipt indicating that the woman received payment. Were the woman to attempt to collect payment of her marriage contract a second time, her husband would produce the receipt. Rav Pappa said: We are dealing in the mishna with a place where one does not write a marriage contract. It is only in a case where there is no concern lest she produce her marriage contract that she collects payment based on the testimony of witnesses.

ואיכא דמתני לה אברייתא איבדה כתובתה הטמינה כתובתה נשרפה כתובתה רקדו לפניה שחקו לפניה העבירו לפניה כוס של בשורה או מפה של בתולים אם יש לה עדים באחד מכל אלו כתובתה מאתים

And there are some who teach the dispute between Rabbi Abbahu and Rav Pappa with regard to the baraita that says: In a case where a woman lost her marriage contract or concealed her marriage contract and she claims that she is unable to find it; or her marriage contract was burned, and there is no proof with regard to the sum to which she is entitled; or practices performed exclusively at the weddings of virgins were performed at her wedding, e.g., people danced before her, or played before her, or passed before her a cup of good tidings or a cloth of virginity; if she has witnesses with regard to any one of these practices, her marriage contract is two hundred dinars.

וליחוש דלמא מפקא עדים בהאי ב"ד וגביא והדר מפקא לכתובתה בהאי ב"ד וגביא בה א"ר אבהו זאת אומרת כותבין שובר רב פפא אמר במקום שאין כותבין כתובה עסקינן

The Gemara asks: And since she collects payment without producing her marriage contract, let us be concerned that she might produce witnesses in this court and collect payment, and then produce her marriage contract in that other court and collect payment with it a second time. Rabbi Abbahu said: This indicates that one writes a receipt indicating that the woman received payment. Were the woman to attempt to collect payment of her marriage contract a second time, her husband would produce the receipt. Rav Pappa said: We are dealing in the mishna with a place where one does not write a marriage contract.

והא איבדה כתובתה קתני דכתב לה איהו סוף סוף מפקא לה וגביא בה מאי איבדה איבדה באור

The Gemara asks: But how could Rav Pappa say that the baraita is dealing with a place where one does not write a marriage contract? Isn’t it taught in that baraita: If a woman lost her marriage contract? The Gemara answers: The baraita is referring to a case where her husband wrote her a marriage contract contrary to the local custom. The Gemara asks: If he wrote her a marriage contract, the concern remains that ultimately she will produce the marriage contract and collect payment with it a second time. The Gemara answers: What is the meaning of lost? The woman lost her marriage contract in the fire. In that case, there is no longer any concern.

א"ה היינו נשרפה ועוד הטמינה מאי איכא למימר ותו איבדה למה לי אלא כל איבדה כי הטמינה בפנינו דמי ולא יהבינן לה עד דאמרי עדים נשרפה כתובתה

The Gemara asks: If so, that is the case of: Her marriage contract was burned, listed separately in the baraita. And furthermore, what is there to say with regard to the case of concealed, where the concern that she will collect payment twice remains? And furthermore, if burned comes to explain the meaning of lost, why do I need the baraita to list the case of lost at all? It would have been sufficient for the baraita to mention the case of a burned marriage contract. Rather, the meaning of the baraita is: The legal status of any case where the woman claims that she lost her marriage contract is like that of a case where she concealed it before us, and we give her payment of her marriage contract only when the witnesses say that her marriage contract was burned. Otherwise, even if witnesses testify that the practices characteristic of the wedding of a virgin were performed at her wedding, she does not collect payment of her marriage contract.

מאן דמתני לה אברייתא כל שכן אמתני' ומאן דמתני לה אמתני' אבל אברייתא לא כי קושיא:

The Gemara notes: The one who teaches this dispute between Rabbi Abbahu and Rav Pappa with regard to the baraita, all the more so would he teach it with regard to the mishna. Applying Rav Pappa’s opinion to the mishna does not necessitate the emendation and reinterpretation necessitated by its application to the baraita. However, the one who teaches this dispute with regard to the mishna would not teach it then with regard to the baraita, in accordance with the difficulty raised there, as the plain meaning of the baraita is that it is a place where one writes a marriage contract.

אם יש עדים כו': וליחוש דלמא מפקא עדי הינומא בהאי ב"ד וגביא והדר מפקא עדי הינומא בבי דינא אחרינא וגביא במקום דלא אפשר ודאי כתבינן שובר:

With regard to that same passage in the mishna: If there are witnesses that she went out of her father’s house to her wedding with a hinnuma, or with her hair uncovered, in a manner typical of virgins, payment of her marriage contract is two hundred dinars, the Gemara asks: But let us be concerned lest she first produce witnesses that she went out with a hinnuma, in this court, and collect payment, and then produce witnesses that she went out with a hinnuma, in that court, and collect payment a second time. The Gemara answers: In a place where it is not possible to guarantee that she will not collect her marriage contract more than once in any other way, certainly we write a receipt, even according to the opinion that as a rule, one does not write a receipt.

העבירו לפניה כוס של בשורה: מאי כוס של בשורה אמר רב אדא בר אהבה כוס יין של תרומה מעבירין לפניה כלומר ראויה היתה זו לאכול בתרומה מתקיף לה רב פפא אטו אלמנה מי לא אכלה בתרומה אלא אמר רב פפא זו ראשית כתרומה ראשית

§ It is taught in that baraita: Or passed before her a cup of good tidings. The Gemara asks: What is a cup of good tidings? Rav Adda bar Ahava says: A cup of teruma wine is passed before the virgin bride, meaning that this woman would have been eligible to eat teruma had she married a priest. Rav Pappa strongly objects to this: Is that to say that a widow does not eat teruma if she marries a priest? Clearly she does. Therefore, what is the proof from teruma that she is a virgin? Rather, Rav Pappa says: The cup of teruma is passed before her to indicate that this bride is first, as she has not yet engaged in intercourse, like teruma that is the first gift separated from the produce.

תניא רבי יהודה אומר חבית של יין מעבירין לפניה אמר רב אדא בר אהבה בתולה מעבירין לפניה סתומה בעולה מעבירין לפניה פתוחה אמאי ניעבר קמי בתולה וקמי בעולה לא ניעבר כלל זימנין דתפסה מאתים ואמרה אנא בתולה הואי והאי דלא עברו קמאי אתנוסי הוא דאתניסו

It is taught in a baraita that Rabbi Yehuda says: The custom is that one passes a barrel of wine before her. Rav Adda bar Ahava said: One passes a sealed barrel of wine before a virgin, and one passes an open barrel of wine before a non-virgin. The Gemara asks: Why is that necessary? Let us pass the sealed barrel before the virgin, and before the non-virgin let us not pass a barrel at all. Why is it necessary to publicize the fact that she is a non-virgin? The Gemara explains: It is necessary, as, at times there could be a case where a non-virgin unilaterally seized two hundred dinars as payment for her marriage contract and said: I was a virgin, and the fact that they did not pass a sealed barrel before me was due to circumstances beyond their control. In order to prevent deceit of that kind, an open barrel is passed before the non-virgin, so that people will remember that she is not a virgin.

תנו רבנן כיצד מרקדין לפני הכלה בית שמאי אומרים

§ The Sages taught: How does one dance before the bride, i.e., what does one recite while dancing at her wedding? Beit Shammai say: